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Post by alanstepney on Jul 1, 2009 20:26:15 GMT
Havoc, you cant just say "EC Rules" as the situation is too complex to just have one set of rules. The first are the Pressure Equipment regulations,1999, enforced by Statutory Instrument (S.I.1999 2001). Then comes the Pressure Equipment Directive, 97/23/EC, which has the most effect, and which all pressure vessels must comply with. This alludes to but does not cover, all the design criteria, not the methods of manufacture, which must, in mosy cases, follow laid down procedures.
I could go on, but it soon becomes tedious. It seems to me that some people want a simple rule that fits all situations, covers the laws, and absolves them from any responsibility (I built it to the rules so it must be OK).
Life isnt like that. And neither is the Law, EU or UK.
To simplify a complex situation, both the Blue Book and the code that "commercial boiler inspectors" use are based upon the PED, and must comply with it.
The main differences are that, members of clubs can have their boilers inspected and tested, such that they can get insurance, at zero cost as it is inlcuded in their membership fees.
(Or, they can go to a commercial tester, pay, typically, £600, and then seek their own insurance.)
Secondly, there is a concession that permits US to make our own boilers. Yes, there are limitations, but it is a major concession, that we should be very happy to have. (I must add, solely due to the efforts of a small number of people who worked hard to achieve it.)
ANY inspector, commercial or club, can refuse to test any boiler, without giving a reason. That too is enshrined in law.
Similarly, any insurance company can refuse your business if they wish to.
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Post by Chris Kelland on Jul 1, 2009 20:52:30 GMT
Hi Havoc,
I am not certain where you are coming from, but, An 'Approved Code of Practice' in the UK is a legal document and as such is recognised. Can I offer an example? My club has cover provided by Aviva and they recognise the national code because as I said it is an ACOP, so as Oxford is a member of both the Southern Federation and the Northern Federation, we as a club can test our members boilers and issue either a Northern Fed certificate or a Southern Fed one. The certificate will be recognised by all clubs that are affiliated to one of the national associations, in practice pretty near all the clubs in the country. Any club or individual that is not affiliated would have to have their boiler(s) tested by a commercial company and yes they will test to the full Pressure Vessels Regulations as they apply in this country.
Your comment on the 'discretion of the boiler tester' is meant to cover the fact that this is still a hobby, club testers are not forced to test. If you quote that extract in full you will find it refers to a situation where boiler tester A knows less about a particular type of boiler than boiler tester B and so he/she will carry out the test instead, with a little instruction thrown in as well.
As far as this not being clear, I disagree, I think it is very clear, Model Engineering's safety record speaks volumes and the Health and Safety Executive and the Insurance companies are willing to allow non commercial operation and testing of model steam boilers under this code.
Chris K.
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Tony K
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,573
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Post by Tony K on Jul 2, 2009 7:29:39 GMT
OK, but will any insurance agree to insure a boiler to that code? I'm not stuborn, but I find that a lot of questions regarding boilers and related issues are met with very vague answers. Also a lot of "at the discretion of the boiler inspector" pops up (like when there is mention of adapting old plans to new rules). I really don't find it clear where this all stands. On one hand you have the EC law and that is clear. You comply or you don't. Not the inspector you ask to test a boiler, not the insurer. But this "code of practise" doesn't look so strong as it sounds. So will any "commercial boiler inspector" use that code to approve a boiler presented to him? Or will he use the EC rules? My take is the latter. All very negative Havoc. I await your positive proposals so we can consider them.
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Post by havoc on Jul 2, 2009 10:21:22 GMT
I don't see what's negative in it Tony. My conclusion is that if the rules were so clear and the whole thing about insurance and testing was clear then there wouldn't be so much questions. But if you read here then the same questions always pop up and they keep coming. And what's worse, the answers vary just as much.
So or the information is available but it isn't coming out, or the status of it isn't clear, or the wording of it isn't clear. If we can settle here for once and all (until the rules change more likely) then this might stop and we can spend time on more productive questions.
Chris, thanks for clearing again a bit of the issue. But your post contains again another question:
So why don't clubs not affiliated recognise that certificate. If I understand it correctly, they are bound by the same ACOP. Or does the ACOP is limited to those belonging to an affiliated club? Which fits with your statement that a commercial tester will use the Pressure Vessel Directive, not the ACOP. Or is it even worse and do Southern clubs only recognise a Southern certificate?
As for proposals: I think the best would be to get a model boiler section in the EC directives. That would mean that any boiler having a certificate according to that could run anywhere in the EC. It would also get rid of the interpretation that has to be made of the derogation to the directive as it is now. And it would strenghten the position of live steam towards insurance.
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Tony K
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,573
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Post by Tony K on Jul 2, 2009 14:20:27 GMT
As for proposals: I think the best would be to get a model boiler section in the EC directives. That would mean that any boiler having a certificate according to that could run anywhere in the EC. It would also get rid of the interpretation that has to be made of the derogation to the directive as it is now. And it would strenghten the position of live steam towards insurance. This, then, is what you believe is the best way forward. Please remember you are attempting to fix something most of us believe aint broke. How are you going to bring it about? Please reveal your proposed first moves - starting tomorrow - or even today.
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Post by havoc on Jul 2, 2009 15:30:20 GMT
So you say it ain't broken? Then why are there so many questions? Why are there so many rules (at least one/country)?
You cannot change this as a single person, this can only be don't from the organisations representing us. (you know this I think) But they will never do this because it means giving up their fiefdom.
So it will keep going until something happens (*) and it becomes imposed from higher on without any consultation. Then we'll all be off worse. The proposals should come from us, not from above.
This happens in a lot of clubs (from poststamps to F1). Instead of working themselves on it and propose something they wait until a higher organisation does this for them. And then they wail and moan. It is a lot of work and you don't see result directly and it is rarely respected or glorious but it should be done to keep things going in the long run.
(*) doesn't have to be a disaster, can just as well be a bureaucrat with a grudge wanting to earn a point.
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Post by alanstepney on Jul 2, 2009 18:19:18 GMT
Havoc, you are way behind the times on this issue.
Had we not had a number of knowledgeable and well qualified people who gave their time and efforts to get us the concessions we now enjoy, we would have the situation where it was illegal for any of us to build our own boilers.
We DO have that concession, agreed in full consultation with all the clubs, and their representative bodies. It does have the full force of law.
You seem to want to abolish all that effort.
OK, you, as an individual, have the choice to buy a commercial boiler, use commercial testers, and insure it with whomsoever you wish.
The rest of us have a choice, for which we should be grateful.
As for: "So it will keep going until something happens and it becomes imposed from higher on" and " doesn't have to be a disaster, can just as well be a bureaucrat with a grudge"
or it could just as easily be someone who keeps harping on about the same point on a message board.
I really have to question your motives in keep raising this point and apparently, trying to get new laws imposed upon us.
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Post by havoc on Jul 3, 2009 6:53:18 GMT
Alan, if the only arguments you have are getting personal then it is getting sad.
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Tony K
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,573
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Post by Tony K on Jul 3, 2009 7:25:06 GMT
So you say it ain't broken? Then why are there so many questions? No, it aint broken. The rules are clear. I think most of the questions may come from those who have not read the rules Alan, if the only arguments you have are getting personal then it is getting sad. Not true. Everyone has put the case politely, consistently and patiently in this and in the endless other threads you have attacked boiler testing systems over some time. To me, you have demonstrated you are not expecting to contribute, only to criticise - that is easy. Over and out.
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Post by Chris Kelland on Jul 3, 2009 7:55:23 GMT
Havoc,
I had thought I had explained the situation clearly, apparently not. Let me try to put this another way.
You are quite correct in saying the main legislation is EU based, this applies to all those who operate pressure vessels of what ever type. In the UK the legislation is applied by the Health and Safety Executive. The HSE have the right under EU legislation to change how the legislation is applied, but not what is applied. In the UK, health and safety matters are applied by the Health and Safety at Work Act and subsequent Statutary Instruments. You can see that primary H&S legislation is directed at those who are doing anything from construction to truck driving in the course of their work, i.e. commercially.
The HSE took the wise decision that because of lobbying by the hobby, that the full weight of the legislation was not needed in a hobby that had a very good safety record. As ME's we are a special case and the HSE used their derogation to come up with a suitable alternative which was worked out many years ago. More recently when the EU based legislation was changed/announced the Model Engineering Liason Group was formed and met and ultimately agreed to the boiler test code as we know it. All of the interested parties were involved and agreed the code.
Now the bit that this all hinges on and is where some people don't quite follow it, is that any ME who makes or operates a 'boiler' for pecuniry gain is deemed to be 'commercial' and must follow the full legislation. If, as an ME you build a boiler in your workshop, and use it yourself this is classed as 'non commercial' and you have the option to join a society and use the club route for testing. Two points you are not permitted to sell that boiler as you are not a commercial boilermaker, but you can sell the completed locomotive. Secondly, using the completed boiler in a locomotive to pull fare paying passengers is not commercial use, it is classed as testing and education.
This is not a case of double standards, but of a Government department talioring legislation to a major interest group without watering down the original intent.
Regards,
Chris K.
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Post by alanstepney on Jul 3, 2009 10:45:42 GMT
Havoc, I could understand your concern if it specifically related to clubs in Belgium. I cannot understand why you appear to have problems with, or objections to, the situation in the UK.
Whilst I may not agree with many things done in other countries, I dont feel that it is my business.
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Post by gilesengineer on Jul 3, 2009 15:19:44 GMT
Alan,
As a slight aside, I should like to congratulate you in that in all these years, you are one of the few who never take personal swipes at any individuals, and you are always an excellent example of good, constructive, pleasant and helpful comment and feedback - so on behalf of us all, thank you.
Giles
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Post by Chris Kelland on Jul 3, 2009 15:33:21 GMT
Hear - Hear!
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Post by havoc on Jul 3, 2009 16:40:27 GMT
Thanks Chris, that's a explanation.
It doesn't relate to belgium, we cannot represent anything because there are too little ME's and the clubs are too fragmented. So they all stay on their patch and fail to see a wider point. The position regarding boilers is -in my view- deplorable here. There is no coordination at any level. Not higher than club level, and often not within a club itself.
The situation in the UK is the most interesting. Part because the tradition is so old there, part because there are organisations on a larger scale than a single club.
But it is far from clear how this all works from the outside. So is it for me still not clear if certificates from one federation are "recognised" by another. Chris's last explanation cleared out how that ACOP came and is used. But I cannot help wondering if everything is soo clear then why are there so much questions about it?
What bothers me is that the whole hobby is hanging on by that derogation in the UK, and on some creative interpretation of the EC directives in other countries. The issue is that such derogations can be questioned each time there is worked at the original directive. So the situation has been converted into a usable situation now but this doesn't mean that the situation is final.
Now there are 2 option: - we sit down, close our eyes, stick a finger in each ear and start singing "lalala". And we fight the next battle unprepared when it comes. - or ME's as a single group work now towards some rule that can be included in the directive for our use.
The first option is what seems to be going on now. Each country/club/orgaisation has worked out some way they will work and cross their fingers. But the second option looks better in the long term. But the fragmented field of ME doesn't make this possible right now. And I feel that the UK which is best organised now and has the longest experience is the right one to do this. That's why I would like to understand the UK situation.
And now I give up.
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Post by alanstepney on Jul 3, 2009 19:22:41 GMT
Giles, and Chris, Thank you for your comments.
Havoc, a friend is involved in getting legislation through the EU. It takes years and costs, literally, millions of Euros. So although it might be nice, I very much doubt that there is any chance of getting laws passed just to cover our situation. We, in the UK, have a fully legal solution that meets the needs of the majority. Perhaps it could be extended to the rest of the EU, but I suspect that would depend upon each country's government.
In that respect, it is similar to the situation in the US, where each State has its own rules.
From what I have heard, some countries in the EU, have such a small number of model engineers, that they are hardly likely to be concerned about such small numbers.
It is probably just the fact that we, in the UK, have so many people in this hobby that we have managed to get to where we are now.
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Post by peterseager on Jul 3, 2009 19:58:00 GMT
I recently took my locomotive to an open weekend at a French club. They did not want to know about boiler certificates. Their attitude seemed to be that they sit behind the boiler so they make sure it is safe. Being used to our regime it made me feel a bit uneasy. Otherwise a very good weekend.
Peter
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Post by havoc on Jul 3, 2009 20:56:22 GMT
That's good news. And I like to hear it. Now it depends on each country, if your friend (and his followers) can push it at the highest level, than it doesn't. A country can do more than the EC asks, but not less or against it. Yes, this implies a risk. But as you say, outside the UK there are so little of us they won't bother.
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Post by Chris Kelland on Jul 4, 2009 17:22:08 GMT
Havoc,
The answer to your question is, yes! That really is the point of the whole exercise, to enable an ME to have a boiler tested by his own club and have it recognised by all clubs that are affiliated to any federation within the umbrella of the BMELG. In practice, probably about 95% of the SME's in the UK. There you go, Havoc all the info you need to understand how it works.
Chris K.
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Post by ayesha2 on Jul 4, 2009 19:23:14 GMT
what happens when a CE marked boiler is of questionable build? That it presents a problem to a club boiler inspector whoes instincts says rubbish and is not built has he would pass for certification
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russell
Statesman
Chain driven
Posts: 762
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Post by russell on Jul 5, 2009 16:20:12 GMT
If any product is CE marked and does not conform with all applicable Directives you can take the matter to the Trading Standards Department who have the power to prosecute.
If it does comply with the Directives then every member state must allow its sale and use.
Russell.
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