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Post by drainblocker on Jul 10, 2009 11:40:48 GMT
Hi one and all have i mentioned any names or suppliers do you know summat i don,t drainblocker you seem to be well informed for someone who has just joined has these are only questions that i would like clarifying by the people who matter the most, the model engineers of this country and of course not forgetting those abroad bless their little cotton socks. yours tony Your right I have just joined (3 weeks after you) I am a model engineer between projects who is intrigued. I have asked a few questions to get a better understanding and they have been passed by. I do know about how to make a boiler, unlike some I have actually made a few, and didn't have to comsol stays like some of the 'experts' on here. You have obviously bought a boiler as you can't make one, nothing wrong with that. So we have some info from the Web that quite frankly is clear as mud. What a few of you need to realise is that all these regs are open to interpretation, at the very least a supplier must be seen to comply with the regulations. But we are going around in circles. Is the boiler in question, under 0.5litres, or is it above. That is your starting point as some think a boiler of a certain capacity shoudn't have been marked. So What is the Capacity? Drainblocker
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Post by alanstepney on Jul 10, 2009 11:44:30 GMT
There was an interesting and informative article by Mike Leahy, in Model Engineer, 7 Feb, 2003. That covers all the points about bar-litres etc, as well as some of the others raised here.
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Post by ayesha2 on Jul 10, 2009 17:06:16 GMT
hi alan
sorry i no longer subscribe was on the dole from xmas 1997--2008 so i cut down to just ME Workshop
yours tony
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marco
Active Member
Posts: 33
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Post by marco on Jul 10, 2009 20:47:38 GMT
The CE Marking is stamp after the boiler is fully tested.
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Post by mutley on Jul 10, 2009 21:26:14 GMT
Having seen the original thread I was not going to get involved in this one. However my curiosity has been raised. like drainblocker I am wondering how long you have had this boiler? Did you not ask for your money back? I have never purchased a boiler always having made my own, a 5" Simplex and a 5" Dougal, what paper work do you get with a boiler does that not tell you under what regulations/interpretation it is constructed? How many litres capacity is the boiler and what pressure is it designed to run at? That will give you the bar litres and the answer to the CE marking surley? A few answers to these basic questions might enable a little more than just conjecture and some valuable advice from others.
regards
Andy
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Post by alanstepney on Jul 11, 2009 4:46:59 GMT
Please can we keep to the general question of pprofessional boiler makers and their responsibility, and not get on to any specific boilers.
That was covered in another thread, which, for various reasons, was deleted, and should this thread go the same way, this too will be deleted, which will remove some valuable information from the board.
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kwil
Part of the e-furniture
Posts: 383
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Post by kwil on Jul 11, 2009 10:38:03 GMT
I have been watching this thread from a far.
I would have thought the question of Professional Boiler makers' responsibility is quite clear from this long running thread. They have to work to the Regulations, as set out in the UK ISSUED Document [no we do not have to work to the EU Directive as the UK version is deemed to be compliant with the EU Directive unless you want to go to the European Court for clarification].
If the boiler is compliant with the Requirements of the Agreed Testing Regulations and where necessary, has been CE stamped and has the necessary Certificate of Conformance, then that is the end of it.
All other items are a matter of opinion, cosmetics etc. However custom and practice in boiler making will vary between the various makers, both amateur and professional, if you want a "gold plated" version make it yourself and then you will be satisfied, ....perhaps!
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Post by ayesha2 on Jul 11, 2009 11:32:42 GMT
Hi kwil
you have sent 5 PM,s to me you know the reason why this post,you also have a photo i sent you.
yours tony
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kwil
Part of the e-furniture
Posts: 383
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Post by kwil on Jul 11, 2009 15:50:21 GMT
Ayesha
I know your personal concerns, but it struck me that others were confusing your issues
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Post by drainblocker on Jul 11, 2009 17:40:28 GMT
Professional boiler makers are now steeped in burocracy. They have to work to directives laid down by the EU. They are then interpreted for the UK by the DTI, then they are interpreted by their trade association or their notified body. When they have made a boiler, they have to sign their technical file to say they have made the boiler to a certain standard and it is safe to use. They have to put their name on it. No other person is responsible for that boiler except the person who has made it and if there are any problems the whole world knows who made it. The boiler maker has to interpret regulations that come down to them from more than one different body. You may find two professional boiler makers' opinions differ but the over-riding fact is that the boiler must be made to an acceptable standard; on the other hand, an amateur boiler maker can make a boiler, cover it in comsal, not even test it, add frames and wheels, put in on e-Bay and sell it as a 'part-built' to the highest bidder. He could do this several times a year, he is not regulated and not deemed as a 'professional', so can somebody tell me what acceptable practice is when opinions vary so much. I will add: the amateur boiler maker could not sell the boiler on its own, it has to be as a 'part-built'. Likewise, he could put it in a fully-built loco and sell that. It is up to the buyer whether or not he wants to buy it without a test certificate, without knowing the standard of materials used for the boiler, or where they were purchased from. So why is there so much concern about professional boiler makers when the amateur can do so much and sell his product, without much regulation? Before you all come back, I do recognise that owners or buyers of amateur-built boilers will have to obtain a club certificate before operating the boiler in public. There are also club testers who will pass boilers covered in comsal and those who refuse to do so. As I have said, it is all down to opinions. Please can someone also explain to me why the amateurs are so un-regulated?
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Post by alanstepney on Jul 11, 2009 18:06:47 GMT
The subject of amateur builders has been adequately covered in other threads, so I wont go over it again here. Basically, it is due to "us" having an excellent safety record, and due to the efforts of a number of people who worked on behalf of us model engineers, to ensure that we would be allowed to build our own boilers. Had they not done so, it would be the death of the hobby.
However, as I said, that has been discussed already. The object of this thread is to discuss those cases where so-called professionals are not acting in a professional manner, and spcifically, cases where legal action is being taken against some boiler makers, and are the present rules sufficient to protect the buyer.
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Post by drainblocker on Jul 11, 2009 18:30:29 GMT
Alan, I don't understand you. Are you saying professional boilermakers have a worse record for quality and safety than amateur boilermakers (who can sell boilers that are untraceable)? Does anyone have facts and figures to back this up? Possible court cases you refer to: what type of boilers are involved - stainless steel welded, copper welded, copper silver-soldered, copper silver-soldered/comsal?
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Post by havoc on Jul 11, 2009 19:45:15 GMT
From what I understood of the first post in this thread, the cases turn around issues of "paperwork": one signing off a boiler he shouldn't and the other not disposing of a valid wending certificate. What happened to the rest of the thread isn't exactly clear.
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Post by drainblocker on Jul 11, 2009 21:38:52 GMT
is the dti taking these people to court ? are the other case's about paperwork not been in order ?
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Post by alanstepney on Jul 12, 2009 7:09:21 GMT
The two cases I mentioned are going to court. However, the DTI has declined to get involved.
If a buyers only redress against someone who blatently breaches the law (in one case, supplying boilers for several years that are technically illegal), is to take legal action against the builder themselves, it doesnt show the law in a favourable light. In fact, all builders may just as well ignore it, and some seem to do just that.
Hence my initial comment, "..further rules, or stronger enforcement of those that already exist."
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Post by drainblocker on Jul 12, 2009 10:16:20 GMT
If the DTI refuse to become involved, then is this because the DTI has taken the view that there is no case to answer? After all, what is the main purpose of a copper silver-soldered boiler?
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Post by alanstepney on Jul 12, 2009 16:12:53 GMT
If the DTI refuse to become involved, then is this because the DTI has taken the view that there is no case to answer? After all, what is the main purpose of a copper silver-soldered boiler? As I am not psychic, I refuse to presume the reasons for the DTI's decission. One of the boilers (or number of boilers) are steel, as can be deduced from the intial post.
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Post by ayesha2 on Jul 12, 2009 19:15:24 GMT
perhaps the D.T.I. and the trading standards want to see how or even if the model engineers of this country and abroad will put up for bad workmanship, sloppy standards from the few. After all £4000.00 for a boiler {i believe a5inch britannia } one expects a first rate job i would have thought, even one of smaller gauge one surely expects the same standards and i am sure a very responsible boiler maker would not pass on a load of rubbish.
BUT life being what it is there will always be some who will try to do otherwise.
A club boiler inspector i am sure will tell any of his club members how it might or might not be done, even get other members to help, discuss it, to get it to the standard required that is why the safety record is so good. I reckon that is why the DTI do not want to become involved.
I believe that our right to make our own boilers may be at stake if we ignore the few unstandard boilers that are getting out to the public, by the public i mean those who for one reason or another do not or cannot become a part of a model engineering club, they too are part of the model engineering hobby wether you like it or not, they have a rogue boiler it will be just has if it belongs to every one.
yours tony
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Tony K
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,573
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Post by Tony K on Jul 13, 2009 7:59:53 GMT
The system works fine as it is. But some seem hell bent on changing the system for a small minority - pointless. Paul Exactly - but most of the regular contributors are tired of saying it and have gone home.
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Post by ayesha2 on Jul 13, 2009 10:16:53 GMT
Hi tonytrans
1.105 people think maybe it wants sorting out which is what people are trying to do, your new thread shows your need to find out what is what.
are the few using the mark to pass off bad workmanship, has far has i know and that is little, the makers might be inspected once a year, what happens in the mean time
yours tony
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