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Post by alanstepney on Jul 6, 2009 18:54:55 GMT
I am, and have always been, strongly opposed to legislation and the "nanny state".
Therefore I am never one to suggest further rules, or stronger enforcement of those that already exist.
However, whilst the topic of "us" building our own boilers has been top of the agenda for some time, I suspect we may have been ignoring a more serious problem.
We recently had a thread in which one person claimed that his professionally built boiler was not satifactory.
I would have liked to see that case taken to Court, when the boilermaker would either have been exonerated, or his work condemned. In either case, it would have reached a conclusion.
I have also heard of a professional boiler maker, whose welding certificate has expired some time ago, but continues to make and supply boilers.
There is another case where another boiler maker has been marking his work with the CE mark, when, in fact, he has no authority to do so.
These cases are, or are likely to be going before the Courts, so I cant say ane more at this time about any specific case.
I would however, like to open this as a general discussion, and see what others here think.
Given these three cases (which, I emphasis, are just claims, until the Courts have examined the evidence), should we be more concerned about professional builders rather than the amateur?
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Post by ayesha2 on Jul 6, 2009 19:42:13 GMT
YES WE SHOULD BE MORE CONCERNED ABOUT PROFESSIONAL BOILER MAKERS.
the model engineer has more control over boiler making through the clubs etc, which advise and monitor boiler manufacture.
Your post Alan proves that i am wrong, it is worse than i thought, not just one [1] misguided individual, but 2 more this proves i think that the work carried out by model engineers for model engineers applies only to model engineers.
The professionals do not give a damn so long has they get their money, DO NOT GET ME WRONG THERE ARE SOME VERY GOOD PROFESSIONALS WHO DESERVE THE HIGH PRICE FOR THEIR BOILERS
BUT LIFE IN GENERAL THERE ALWAYS WILL BE THE UNTRUST WORTHY IN ANY PROFESSION, THE BAD EGGS AND ALL THAT.
i am glad that someone at last has the courage to grab the bull by the horns for i could see that the model engineer could lose the right to build his own boiler, i thought i was not getting anywhere because i was a NEWBIE, but strewth i didn,t think it was so bad,
all i thought i had was 1 misguided individual who had dug himself a hole he could not get out of.
I am not qualified to expound on this anymore, BUT I DO KNOW THAT THERE ARE PLENTY OF THOSE OUT THERE WHO CAN DO SO
AND I SURE AM EAGER TO HEAR FROM THE MORE EXPERIENCED AMONG YOU
yours Tony Spencer
P.S. open to suggestions on boiler
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Post by havoc on Jul 6, 2009 19:52:16 GMT
Can you clarify a bit the "has no authority to do so"? It can mean several of things in this context:
- he marks a boiler that should not be marked (the boiler does not comply)
- he marks a boiler where he is not the person responsible for the marking (like a boiler someone else has made)
- something else.
From a faq on CE marking:
Who can perform CE marking?
The company that places the product or equipment on the market is responsible for declaring that the item is compliant with all applicable EC Directives and placing the CE mark on the product or equipment. The responsibility for CE marking will fall on the manufacturer if the manufacturer is EU-based and selling products directly or the manufacturer’s agent within the European Union if the manufacturer is based outside of the European Union. Third parties cannot apply the CE marking or make declarations of conformity unless they are responsible for placing the product in the EU.
So if he made the boiler he has the authority to mark it. If it is justified is another question.
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Post by metalworker on Jul 6, 2009 19:53:10 GMT
I too know someone makes and marks things with a fake CE mark, in this case 00 gauge controllers. He advertises in various small gauge magazines and I have referred him to trading standards.
I notice the gentleman with the dodgy boiler has put his posting word for word on the Model Engineer mag forum now. It seems to me that the easiest solution for him is to return the boiler and take the supplier to the small claims court - cheap and quick.
The M.E. mag forum is now saying that supposedly iffy suppliers can be named because there is now a disclaimer on the site, sounds dodgy to me.
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marco
Active Member
Posts: 33
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Post by marco on Jul 6, 2009 20:09:47 GMT
is very simple to check if the boiler Maker is honest with the marking and certifications. If the boiler maker mark with the CE Stamp have to have a registration number. for level 2 the PVD need to stamp the CE marking with the Registration Number. So if you don't sure about the honesty. you can check with the notfied body of PVD if is correct or not.
You can also ask for the welder qualification (CODE) by BS EN 288/287 or ASME IX Standards.
I hope that helps.
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Post by ayesha2 on Jul 6, 2009 21:18:59 GMT
Hi metalworker
have you tried to explain to a standards officer about a loco boiler
its an education, honest it is
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Post by baggo on Jul 6, 2009 22:58:05 GMT
I read up on CE certification some time ago and it appears to me that in a lot of cases the manufacturer can simply 'self certify' themselves i.e. there is no need for external examination. The manufacturer just has to fill in the relevant forms, pay the requisite fee, and they suddenly become CE registered. Whether 'boiler making' falls into the self certification category I don't know. If it does, it does not inspire a lot of confidence in such markings.
John
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Post by havoc on Jul 7, 2009 6:54:15 GMT
A manufacturer can never be CE registered, the product is CE marked. This is a fine distinction, but that's the way it is. A manufacturer can make both CE marked and other products. If a product is CE marked, then it has to be accompanied by a declaration of comformity at the sale. And any customer can ask for a copy of the technical file.
The examination isn't necessary external. In practise it often is because having all the tools (and up to date calibration) is expensive. So small manufacturers go external but large enterprises that have a lot of this to do can do it internally.
Likewise there is no "fake" CE mark (unless you call a CE mark that isn't conforming to the typography a fake). As Baggo said, anybody can mark a product CE if it conforms to the relevant standards, if you have a technical file relating to the product and if you deliver a declaration of conformity at sale.
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Post by weldsol on Jul 7, 2009 7:06:32 GMT
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Post by drainblocker on Jul 7, 2009 7:19:33 GMT
P.S. open to suggestions on boiler How long have you had this boiler? Has the Boiler maker offered at any time to have the boiler back? If not you should try the small claims court. Drainblocker |
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Post by alanstepney on Jul 7, 2009 8:45:25 GMT
I understand that boilers need to be checked by a Notified Body. (Or rather, in the case that I mentioned above, that is the claim of the lawyers who are involved in it.)
Irrespective of that, the rules are, or should be, more than just anyone can stamp on the CE mark, without any supporting evidence.
As I said, I cant go into details, as this is a specific case that will go before the Courts.
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russell
Statesman
Chain driven
Posts: 762
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Post by russell on Jul 7, 2009 9:49:28 GMT
Alan,
You have to distinguish between type approval for a specific design and testing of individual examples built to that design. Model boilers are often built as a small series. The approval by a Notified Body requires design verification and the testing of a limited number of examples. Further examples can be built and tested (often to procedures agreed by the Notified Body) by the manufacturer and CE marked without reference to the Notified Body. This of course requires a certain honesty on the part of the manufacturer.
It is a criminal offense to falsely place a CE mark on a product. As a former Managing Director of a company making CE marked product I personally was very careful.
Regards,
Russell.
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Post by havoc on Jul 7, 2009 10:22:14 GMT
That's what the technical file is: the supporting evidence that the product complies to the relevant directives. Every product bearing the CE mark has to have one and it should be delivered on request. The stamp itself means that this file is available.
So anybody can stamp CE if you comply with the rules.
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Post by drainblocker on Jul 7, 2009 11:18:32 GMT
Hi Havoc,
Was this boiler supplied with a technical file such as Declaration of conformity, Test certification ect ect? If so was it signed/stamped by the maker/relevant person?
Drainblocker
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Post by alanstepney on Jul 7, 2009 18:37:06 GMT
I wont, indeed cant, go into details on this specific case.
Suffice to say that it IS going to Court, so there must be reasonable grounds for thinking that the company who made it / them and applied the CE mark, didnt comply with the rules.
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Post by havoc on Jul 7, 2009 19:08:21 GMT
Can't help you Drainblocker (*) as I wasn't the person having troubles.
(*) strange alias, I get weird ideas with that:)
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marco
Active Member
Posts: 33
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Post by marco on Jul 7, 2009 19:48:32 GMT
Gentlemen. the CE Marking in especific for the Boilers are calculated in diferents levels or charters under the pressure vessels directive. if the boiler be working at more the 7 Bar x the amount of litters.Corresponde to a level 2 (Brittania - Highlander). of the PVD so. Need a qualified independent body to inspect and certified that your procedures and codes are the correct. So the parts or samples have to send to the NDT Company to pass the Xray, Ultrasonic, DPI In case of stainless and magnetic particle, Rokwell - Vickers HAZ Tensile test if your product past this test . at the some time this procedures have to be aproove by recognize independent body in NDT. Like LLOYD and others. If the PVD certified independent body agree with all this requariments then they give you a number to stamp next to your CE Marking.If you make up your own number you are risking 3 Months of imprisoment. For the level one The PVD Certified independent body will carried out similar checks but you don't need the Welding procedures or codes. only the witness of the certified Body. Ofcourse that if you want to do the work professionally. More info go to the DTI Website under the Pressure vessels directive and good luck, because is absolutly bourocratic. And if you want a Boiler make with all this certificates and procedures go to. www.steamtechnology.co.uk |
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Post by drainblocker on Jul 7, 2009 20:31:44 GMT
as I wasn't the person having troubles. Yes Havoc this one is all a bit weird, we have someone starting threads up then not actually answering simple questions, and then we have a supplier who may have risked 3 months inside for shall we say less than £3K as I don't know what sort boiler we are talking about (copper or steel, big or small). Strange. On some threads we have boiler makers who are hiding behind paperwork, then on others boiler makers who are in trouble for not having correct paperwork for the same regulation. Strange. |
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Post by Shawki Shlemon on Jul 8, 2009 8:57:23 GMT
I think the Australian AMBSC code for copper boilers was based on the highlander in 7.25" G as the largest size ( 25 litres ) and 100 psi the highest pressure under the code and anything above that has to be done professionally and certified by government authority .
All the rules tuns up to be similar .
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Post by ayesha2 on Jul 8, 2009 9:21:06 GMT
Hi one and all
summat else to get your teeth into
when should the CE mark be put on the boiler before its put together then brazed or after its brazed
yours tony
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