Modelworks A4 Golden Eagle

[wiltsrob]

Good Afternoon All

I have decided to start a new thread for pics and coments and bit for my engine as not to confuse people on the other threads about the A4's

Below is a few more pics of my cladding mockups after about 6 hours or swearing and filing..

s1123.photobucket.com/albums/l544/wiltsrob/?action=view¤t=DSCF0451.jpg

s1123.photobucket.com/albums/l544/wiltsrob/?action=view¤t=DSCF0448.jpg

s1123.photobucket.com/albums/l544/wiltsrob/?action=view¤t=DSCF0449.jpg

Robert

[leighsailor]

Hi Rob, starting to look like an A4.
How long has it taken you to get the streamlining to that level?
what livery are you planning?
Please keep up the pics
regards
Leighsteamer

[wiltsrob]

Hia..

Spent most of this morning on it... lots or filling and plasters ....

it has shown up several issues which i will have to solve...like the valve lever in the cab will need to be moved and the linkage to the wheigh shaft re designed

an when the cab is fitted it covers the hole where all the pipework is supposed to run...

I wont be able to fit the streamlining properly untill i have the cylinders back on...

Also i found out today i have to drop the leading axel as i have to change the break actuators as the ones supplied by modelworks are none servicable ... ordered new ones from PNP should be here by the end of the week.


Robert

[wiltsrob]

Morning...

Today i plan on finishing the cladding mockup prior to strip down for cylinder refit and new lubricators...

But a question .... washout plugs that run along the firebox.... were they always painted or were some left... i fancy leaving mine brass .. i think it would look quite nice..

Robert

[leighsailor]

Hi Wilts rob, I found that to fit the PNP brake cylinder, it was necessary to shorten the operating shaft, because it fouls the track at its current lenght.
Also, it pays to omoit the two rear bolts on the bearing block that supports the culinder, they cannot be undone withe the front main wheels in place.
Hence, with these bolts omitted, you can remove the brake cylinder without removing the front driving wheels.
Also check the position of the bearing block, since the hole is offset, and is best in the higher position.
regards
Leighsteamer

[wiltsrob]

Leighsteamer...

Unfortunatly mine has been assembled using all 4 screws as i expected the unit to work..so the only way to change the unit is to drop the leading axle or run without engine breaks and just rely on the tender and train to stop....i might run like that until the engines first major overhaul and then fit it.

Robert

[Deleted]

Hi Robert

I'm still new to this but from what I've been told by those who aren't so new most only use the trolley brake for stopping. Reason being the wear and tear suffered from using the loco's own brakes. Makes sense to me as replacing brake shoes and worse still reprofiling or in worse cases replacing wheels doesn't sound like much fun to me.
Having said that I will have fully working brakes on my A1 when finished but don't intend using them for the reasons given above except just to show that they do work as per the prototype.
Re your brake cylinders another solution could be to use Don Young's castings for Doncaster, his design is very good.

Regards

Pete

[wiltsrob]

Hia.

You make a good point ... I have one spanner to throw into the mix...

i am 1/3 the way through building a rake of 7 plank wagons and a gaurds van to run behind her ( i started these while waiting for kits to arrive from modelworks )

The reason i started is when i visited other tracks with her on club open days there wasnt always trollies available for me to use ... plus.... there is a picture of Golden Eagle pulling a rake of unfitted stock in 1964 just south of Edinburgh that i wanted to recreate.

I am not sure if just tender breaks will be sufficient to stop the train.

Robert

[Deleted]

Ahhh, I see... Btw when I said most don't use the loco brakes I was including the tender. I also plan to build a rake of Gresley teaks to pull behind my A1 and I plan on having all coaches braking systems operational using the vacuum from the loco, same as the prototype but if I ever do get this far I'll probably only use the system for visits to such places as Gillingham.
No harm in dreaming..

Pete

[wiltsrob]

Disaster struck today.......

I decided i would pour some oil into the centre cylinder and move the valve back and forth to ensure it was well lubricated since the loco isnt likly to be moved for another few months ....

the valve is stuck solid ... i couldnt even move it but placing a drift on the rod and tapping it with a hammer ....

looks like i am now going to have to remove the centre cylinder as well .. this means removing the boiler to do so.....

ffffing model.. i sometimes wish i had never started this thing...

Robert

[Geoff (Carlisle)]

Hi Robert , the same thing happened to my 5" gauge enterprise,and i had to take the side tanks off,cab,bunker,and boiler.All 3 cylinders off and use a brass drift and hammer to move the pistons and valves. then use a hone very lightly to clean the bores out. All the piston rings were seized ,4 on each bobbin and 2 on each piston. I am slowly putting it all back together again, and thinking how i can get oil into them and i don't think the answer is pouring it down the blast pipe.

Geoff (Carlisle)

[wiltsrob]

Hia...

i was only pouring down the blast pipe to try prevent the m from siezing.. i had been manually turning the lubricator over every few weeks and only 3 weeks ago rolled the whole engine forward so i could drop the front bogie to make some adjustments to the side play.. i recon it was siezed already and what had been moving was the valve rod ... the valve is only held in place with a grub screw... when i remake the valves next month using PTFE rings i will make new valve rods thar are threaded...

Robert

[wiltsrob]

Hia all..

cylinders off now.. and i was right the valves were stuck fast and the rod was moving in the bobbin... a problem i wont have with the new spindals and bobins... I hope within the next month or so to have it all back together for a test steam...then i can fit the crinaline and get her finally painted... should ( money and time permitting ) be complete for start of next season with all the mods fitted and tested.

I will post a pic of the bobins when the are done

Robert

[pault]

Hi All
Sorry you are having all these problems Rob, there are times when you do jobs like this where you want to quit and just bin the lot. However the first time you open the regulator for real on the track and it pulls you, you will forget the hours of struggling and frustration that were part of getting there. Especial if it is your first you will get a huge kick from it and never forget it. For a short while you will also become slightly boring to people like family and friends who don’t understand what you have been through and achieved.
With regard to some of the other points in the thread.
Where I play trains (7 ¼” gauge) we use only the loco/tender brakes, currently none of our coaches are braked. We do have a comprehensive signalling system so as a rule the need to stop does not come as a surprise so we do not need to screech to a halt. We do have significant gradients up to 1 in 55 so on occasions a few turns on the tender hand brake are used to control the speed on the downhill sections.
If you want to drive a train like you would drive a car or a modern electric suburban train then you will need brakes all down the train. Using just the brakes on a driving trolley probably has little advantage over using the loco brakes on a largish 5” gauge loco. If you take Pete’s Flying Scotsman he will have 14 braked wheels as apposed 4 or 8 on the average driving trolley. Overall weight of driver and trolley against loco in working order probably not much difference. On that basis the loco should be capable of providing plenty of brake force certainly when compared to the driving trolley.
My personal experience is that loco brakes are often poorly designed and or executed, small cylinders, inadequate mechanical advantages, valve and pipe sizes and long cold pipe runs to cylinders on steam brake systems. On vacuum systems cylinder size, lack of mechanical advantage and or reservoir volume, excessive free play in rigging and their biggest killer of performance lots of tiny leaks. Throw in that many locos and more importantly tenders lack compensated brake gear and it is not much of a surprise that people find them lacking in stopping power.
When it comes to wear on braking systems I can only go on my own experience of 7 ¼” with no train braking. We do periodically have to make and fit new brake blocks to locos and tenders. At a rough guess I would say about every 15 to 25 years for an engine which sees regular service most Sundays in the season. As for wheel wear the most common reason for turning wheels is flange wear, nothing to do with braking, and this is probably in the region of every 20 to 30 years. We do run on aluminium track which probably reduces the frequency of wheel turning compared to running on steel, particularly if you just run on track welded up from black bar.
We have a number of different driving styles across our drivers however most of them come from the school of thought, let nature do as much of the work as possible be that in terms of speeding up or slowing down. It was widely and still is encouraged in some areas of the big railway. Not only does it save on wear on running gear but also saves on fuel costs as well.
With regard to the problems with valves etc. What clearance have you got on the valve heads and in the ring grooves? It is quite common for people to make valves and pistons with only a couple of tenths clearance in the bores, in the belief that that is the best thing to prevent blow by. In my experience if they are cast iron it is the best way to get the valves/pistons seized solid particularly after the first steaming or sometimes run on compressed air. I leave 2 or 3 thou clearance on the valves and pistons and rely on cast iron rings (Clupet) to do the sealing. Again I leave a couple of thou of longitudinal clearance between the ring and groove. I also use molybdenum disulfide paste on assembly to provide corrosion protection and lubrication during initial running.
Hope some of this may be of help keep at it you will get there in the end
Regards
Paul

[wiltsrob]

Paul.

I agree with most of the above and have run for a couple of seasons with only ther tender breaks but the club rules stated only 2 trollies could be pulled like that.. my A4 has on a club day pulled all 8 trollies loaded and it loved it...
I would feel very concerned pulling any more than the 2 trollies with out full breaking for several reasons
1. if i have a derail then i would he happier knowing i can stop in a hurry thus reducing the chances of the rest of the train comming off or people getting hurt
2.some idiot putting something on the track infront of me. I used to belong to a club which had a member who would put a bucket or something else on the line to stop the train if he wanted to have a ride especially on club nights when we were there for our own pleasure rather than public ( fortunatly he was expelled after a couple of these events )

Personally i dont see the point to building a loco capable of pulling 40 - 60 people along and only pulling 9 at a sedate 5mph .. if that is all i wanted to do i would have built a bridget.. I know that most if not all clubs have a 6 - 10mhp speed limit which is why i look for clubs with long grades so i can make the engine work ( trust me that she sounds FAB climbing a 1/100 grade with even a reasonable load on ) i cant wait to run her as somewhere like Echils Wood with a full load on..

Robert

Robert

[wiltsrob]

Evening all..

An update on the work so far.....

The Job which pays the bills have transfered me to the midlands so not much has progressed other than i have no reprofiled the cartazi wheels and axle and am starting on the pony truck wheels.. these should be done by the end of the month....
After talking to members from the local club i have decided to stick with piston rings on the valve bobbins...hopefully by mid to end september i will have all 3 sets done and can then satrt re assembly of the engine..
I have also decided that a 3 glass hydrostatic lub system would look great and allow me to control the oil to each cylinder independently and could even do so on the move...
When i start the re assembly i will post more pics of the cab

Robert

[wiltsrob]

Evening all...

Having now got my new workshop up and running ( sort of anyway )..

I am on annual leave from work and have 14 days to work on the engine.. I have set myself a rather hard schedule that should see me ready to paint the loco by the end of the month.

In starting the work today

1.. I have a lot of beading to fit to the tender ... my thought was to solder it on... but ... how is the best way to make the beading go around corners ( lots of little slits and fill .. or .. heat it up and bend ) .. I prefer the first idea ... also the beading came in a roll .. how do I get it to be straight again .. I have tried tapping it on a vice and I have tried using my hands to bend it straight but it looks rather wavy..

I will take pics at a later stage as a picture of snowing paint flakes isn't very interesting..

Robert

[wiltsrob]

I have now found out why the centre cylinder was stuck solid....

no oil at all... it looks like other than the oil I added when I was test running on air .. the cylinder has had no oil for the 3 seasons it ran prior to me stripping the outside cylinders off to re do the valves...

the cylinder is rusty as hell and looks like it is quite badly scored...I wont know the extent until I get it out of the frames....

this just re-enforces my distrust of the lubrication system ...

[wiltsrob]

hia all..

have finally got all the cylinders back together today ...

I tried to run her on air... no go... if I fed air into each cylinder individually the loco would move but if I connected up all 3 cylinders it wouldn't go anywhere... I am hoping it is just down to my compressor not having enough flow of air... it is capable of 14.5cfm which I thought should have been plenty..

I am going to take it to my local club tomorrow ( weather permitting ) and try there .. if it works then I will get some film and stick it on youtube ....

I have also ordered enough parts to create a 3 ram lubricator... I am still tempted on hydrostatic but feel the cab is crowded enough already...

Robert

[wiltsrob]

ohhhh dear what a disaster.

have found out why it wasn't running on air.... the bolt holding the left hand crank pin in place had sheared and the return crank was moving as the wheel turned.... it looks like I am going to have to remove all the wheels to double check all the pins and to replace a few of the bolts in the frame to allow more clearance...

Robert