Simplex and Super Simplex Builds

[gwrfan]

Hi Gents,

I have become the custodian of a part-built Simplex that belongs to our Society. No one seems to want anything to do with it, so I am just 'investigating'

The rolling chassis is the original Simplex build, and is just the frame, wheels and axleboxes (complete), rods and cylinders. The valve gear is not made yet. I will be looking for other parts on various sites in order to carry on with the work, but I would like to use the Super Simplex boiler in due course.

Have any of you converted an existing Simplex into a Super Simplex without too much bother? I know the frames are a little longer and the wheelbase is different, but the plate work and pipework, etc won't matter that much.

I'd welcome your comments please. Thanks.

Geoff

[jma1009]

hi geoff,
others may disagree but i have always thought both SIMPLEX and SUPER SIMPLEX to be over cylindered with far too large a bore. your idea of fitting a SUPER SIMPLEX boiler to a SIMPLEX chassis will get over this problem (the SUPER SIMPLEX has an even larger bore than SIMPLEX!)
cheers,
julian

[gwrfan]

Hi Julian,

Thanks for your reply.

I had wondered about the cylinders, but had/have no intention of replacing them (at this stage). Looking at the cost of the rest of what is needed for the loco - excluding the boiler - it will probably be a while before I think about doing anything with the rolling chassis. (I have 3 other embrio locos on the go, one of which was started almost 30 years ago!!).

I think I will just 'collect' any bits that come up for sale and keep them for a rainy day!

Cheers!

Geoff

[Shawki Shlemon]

I don't know too much about Simplex other than reading about it and seen a few not mention I have a few bits and pieces . The super Simplex boiler is longer , so you have to make it shorter ( same as Simplex ) , when you increase the width of the boiler , you have to reduce the width of the tanks to compensate , obviously some changes to the cab . It will be an improvement in my opinion .

[gwrfan]

Thanks Shawki,

I'll have to remember about a shorter boiler! As for the side tanks, not a problem really because if and when I do continue the build it will be Great Westernised with suitable side tanks!

Geoff

[doubletop]

My Simplex is "extended" when it was built and extra 3" was added to the frames to allow a larger bunker. It also is an 1" wider on the running boards allowing for larger tanks. Extended running, extra adhesion? I don't know the reason, I'm the third owner. You can just see the extensions in the lower right of this picture



I haven't looked at the drawings but chopping the boiler about isn't really an option. I'd propose looking at moving the saddle forward slightly and the streatcher behind the backhead backwards slightly. The foundation ring is shaped around the rear horns so I don't think the longer boiler can go fully to the rear leaving the saddle in the normal location. One of the 'fixes' in the super was the ability to get the ashpan out past the horns, You can't get it out on the base Simplex. Nothing on the barrel is going to get in the way of the running gear at the front.

The reason the rear stretcher may need to be moved back slightly would be to accommodate the larger grate (it won't be any wider). You can see from the picture the forward stretcher can't be moved forward as the center horns are in the way.

Then look at adding small extensions to the front of the frames for the buffer beams and maybe the rear as with mine.

Pete

[jma1009]

hi pete,
there isnt any reason why the SUPER SIMPLEX boiler barrel cant be shortened; the barrel (as the investigations by jim ewins showed) provide very little in the way of heat transfer other than in the first 1/3rd of the tubes. i finished off a club SUPER SIMPLEX which had SIMPLEX frames and cylinders. i drew up the drawings and specification for the boiler which R Chambers of Weymouth made for us professionally. i also specified proper girder crown stays on my drawings!
cheers,
julian

[Shawki Shlemon]

Pete may I suggest that you look at DJ website and see his modified pump stretcher , you may like to adopt his idea , the pump will be removable without removing the wheels .
Julian , I can't see why you can't shorten the boiler barrel , will have minimum if any effect on boiler efficiency .

[doubletop]

Oct 10, 2013 6:59:42 GMT Shawki Shlemon said:

Pete may I suggest that you look at DJ website and see his modified pump stretcher , you may like to adopt his idea , the pump will be removable without removing the wheels .
Julian , I can't see why you can't shorten the boiler barrel , will have minimum if any effect on boiler efficiency .

Shawki

I wasn't commenting on the pump stretcher. It was the location of the stretcher just behind the middle horns and in front of the throat plate. It can't be moved so sets the location of the boiler. The other problem I referred to was the inability to remove the ashpan on the base Simplex due to the shape of the foundation ring in relation to the rear horns. Martin Evans acknowledged the problem with the release of the Super Simplex design.

My other comment on shortening the boiler had nothing to do with efficiency. It was more a case of "if it ain't broke don't mess with it". Its easier to modify the frames than chop a perfectly good boiler. But if you've got the services of expert boiler makers then I suppose its possible. Then again you could extend that thought to just making a new boiler. In my book anything that's hacked about is never as good as the original, whoever did the work. I suppose its really a trade off between modifying the frames or the boiler. If the boiler is good I'd go for the frames.

Pete

[doubletop]

Oct 9, 2013 23:18:56 GMT jma1009 said:

hi pete,
there isnt any reason why the SUPER SIMPLEX boiler barrel cant be shortened; the barrel (as the investigations by jim ewins showed) provide very little in the way of heat transfer other than in the first 1/3rd of the tubes. i finished off a club SUPER SIMPLEX which had SIMPLEX frames and cylinders. i drew up the drawings and specification for the boiler which R Chambers of Weymouth made for us professionally. i also specified proper girder crown stays on my drawings!
cheers,
julian

Julian

Interesting point you make; when does a Simplex become a Super Simplex, or what defines a Simplex vs Super Simplex? If its got Simplex frames and cylinders and a variant of a Super Simplex boiler I'd suggest its a Simplex? Of the top of my head what were the other changes apart from frame dimensions, cylinder size and boiler? Different pump, brakes, slight modification to the reverser, anything else? changed rods to accommodate the longer frames, ash pan (of course), blastpipe?

Pete

[jma1009]

hi pete,

you are taxing my memory here as my file and drawings were deposited with the club secretary upon my move from the Isle of Wight some 14 years ago after completing the project. however if my memory serves me correct we did what you suggested. we had a set of SIMPLEX cylinders and parts donated, and the frames were made to the SUPER SIMPLEX dimensions. hence the cylinder bore and cylinders were SIMPLEX on a SUPER SIMPLEX chassis with a SUPER SIMPLEX boiler etc. we had a few unusual extras in the form of a don young L&YR ASPINALL chimney, and don made some amendments to the blast pipe and draughting for me. we had the money to buy a professional boiler which speeded things up.

i had some difficulty i remember concerning the expansion link trunnion position due to yet another cock up on the martin evans drawings but i over came this. i also fitted top feed to the front of the top of the boiler. parts of the job i remember very well as the loco spent 18 months on my dining room table as the workshop was full up with other locos at the time! a dining room table makes a most useful addition to the workbench as an assembly bench sometimes! i remember the axlepump stay being a real pig as the wheels had to be dropped to get access to the fixings for same - so Shawki's comments are highly relevant.

i wouldnt regard SIMPLEX or SUPER SIMPLEX as an ideal loco design. LBSC's 5"g MINX with Joy valve gear beats it hands down!

cheers,
julian

[doubletop]

Julian

Its a bit of a conundrum really as there must be numerous of these hybrids and variants out there which could be difficult to classify one way or the other. The guys that built mine dubbed it "Extended Simplex" but its clearly a Simplex under the covers. Even me adding the brakes, revised pump and reverser haven't made it anything else. With frame, boiler and cylinder changes it gets a bit more complicated. The Simplex Stewart Hart is re-building has a boiler with a Belpaire firebox.

As for the comparison of loco's there may well be better types but i enjoy running mine and I imagine that's all that matters to us all.

kind regards

Pete

[Deleted]

Hello. Does anyone have a design for a lever/bowden wire type drain cock setup (not steam or auto) for a standard Simplex. I have some ideas in mind however someone has probably already tackled and solved this one. Cheers

[jma1009]

hi pete,
i agree there are lots of 'COMPLEXES'(as i like to call them!) with all sorts of variations. if you were building one from scratch i think you would have cursed martin evans many times - he had an annoying habit of designing parts to suit the ease of drawing them - rather than ease of making them! there are lots of bits on 'COMPLEX' like this such as the combined tank/cab/bunker sides. separate tanks removable would be a much better arrangement (i also seem to recall at least SIMPLEX called for the tanks to have the base of same the running board material - so carrying out the most simple of repairs requires a huge strip down if you follow the drawings). don young's 5"g JILL 0-6-0T and Reeve's 5"g ACHILLES 0-6-0T design are from a design point of view much better locos than 'COMPLEX'.
cheers,
julian

[Shawki Shlemon]

Hi Pete, I didn't know that the boiler was made , I thought you are going to make it , as for the pump stretcher , if you look at the modification I mentioned you will find that the pump sits in the same position but the screws will be accessible without removing the wheels , all one has to make is a new stretcher for the pump , of course is up to you after all , it just a suggestion and in my opinion is a very good one .DJ had a very good modification .

[Deleted]

OR}---- DUMP THE PUMP !! Learn to drive a-la-full size with two injectors ( and some spare ones in your tool box )... That pump takes a fair bit of energy to drive, takes up space between the frames, and you have the use of the hand pump if needs demand anyway....It's like packing up smoking---you'll feel so much better once you get used to the idea, honestly !Oh, and while I'm ranting----try a) Firing on the move ---- and, b)Doing more than one lap of the club track !!.. EDIT}-- It's ok, the little pink tablets are kicking in now----Ahhhh, tranquility !!)

[Deleted]

ps------- what's all this about you can't remove the ashpan on a Simplex ?? Maybe not as originally designed BUT you can do a few simple mods which will give you a single dump pin operation including dropping the grate at the same time.....with this addition to his loco my friend ROY kept his standard design Simplex in steam ALL DAY at our club track..We adopted FULL-SIZE practice and brought the loco on-shed after about 2 hours running with a 3/4 glass and 80psi...Dropped the fire, de-clinkered the grate, re-built and lit a new fire..Meanwhile the tubes had a rodding, motion oiled and lubricator topped up.... A handfull of fresh Welsh steam coal in the tray, main and aux.water tanks filled, a quick rub-over with the oily rag and she was back in service within the hour----Mind you we were all full-time SVR then so were just re-enacting normal protocols....and as per full-size it was labour intensive with the 3 of us going about our pre-determined jobs----- great fun though and a satisfying feeling as well...

[doubletop]

The original design of the Simplex you can't drop the ashpan. Martin Evans acknowledged this and corrected it on the Super. If you have a Simplex built to the design there's now way of getting the ashpan out without removing the boiler.

I've recently had my boiler out and devised a way of tilting the grate so the fire can be dropped.



The tabs on the ashpan door hold the grate in place, open the ashpan door and the grate tilts forward

Simple and does the job without a major hack. Of course you need the boiler out to be able to do it.



Pete

[Deleted]

Nice one PETE, very impressive.............. mine's a tad simpler than that..With a bit of imagination and a touch of dexterity it is possible to do a once-only removal of the ashpan and grate from an original-build Simplex with the boiler in situ..Following on from the last post, here is my own modified ashpan and grate... I can't get at the loco just now (it's at the far-end of the workshop which is currently filled with on-loan equipment)..To assemble, the grate is placed up and into the foundation ring mouth first and lightly wedged in place...The ashpan is now offered-up at a 45 degree up angle, is then rotated such that the whole of its' rectangular shape is now touching against the foundation ring itself (Hence the curved, upper rear end)---and the dump pin fitted and locked into a spring clip located on the outside of the chassis.....Finally, using your firing iron etc, the grate is lightly knocked down and now sits on top of the ash-pan's new front cross-bar, whilst the extensions at it's rear rest on the inside of the ashpan.......Removal of the dump pin (3/16" steel round ) allows both items to drop cleanly away....

Attachments:

[doubletop]

I like that solution too. It appears that the rear of the ashpan has been relieved to allow it to rotate around the front corner of the horn blocks and clear the foundation ring. Next time the boiler is out I'll be investigating if it will work on mine.

We're both using the same grate material, I purchased two grates when I replaced mine, so have a spare. I subscribe to the belief that if you are doing something different it could well go wrong so have a way out if it does. So I bought two

regards

Pete