simonwass
Part of the e-furniture
Cecil Pagets 2-6-2 of 1908. Engine number 2299. Would make a fascinating model....
Posts: 472
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Post by simonwass on Feb 20, 2007 23:36:39 GMT
Quote taken from 'The "new look" Model Engineer' Not to decry traditional skills, but the other thing to consider is more and more model engineers are availing themselves these days of laser and water jet cutting technology. My understanding is that drawings with fractional dimensions presented to laser/water jet cutters are of little use, hence the increasing appearance of decimal dimensions. If anyone is planning on building the 3205 in EIM, plan on having to buy laser cut frames as this is it seems the designer intends the loco to be built. 50% of the quoted measurements are not on a UK issue ruler! I wonder if he gets a nice cut (no pun intended!) of the profit from the laser cutter? I sent a letter in to EIM asking how to build the frames in the average workshop and his reply was that basically I was living in the dark ages using a saw and file! Design a model using fractional measurements as this is what the vast percentage of model engineers use. The laser cutting brigade can still have stuff cut as the laser doesnt care if it is fractional inches, decimal inches or even metric. Turned parts can have weird sizes as they are 99% measured by vernier or micrometer. What are the views of others on this subject?
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Post by 3405jimmy on Feb 21, 2007 8:15:56 GMT
Got to say I am in the light, laser cutting saves time and that is what I am short of. Jim
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Post by greasemonkey on Feb 21, 2007 8:34:35 GMT
I agree with 3405jimmy, the other thing to realise is that it is a scale model built to 1.54" to the foot rather than the usual 1.5" to the foot, so you are going to get dimensions that dont fit nicley into standard ruler units. Have you asked what the price the frames are?
Andy
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John Lee
Part of the e-furniture
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Post by John Lee on Feb 21, 2007 9:02:31 GMT
Well yes Andy, but even if you want to build "scale" surely rounding to the nearest 1/64 is worth it to please both camps if you are doing frames. Thats about 16 thou... so a round up and down is at the most 8 thou out. I doubt the original frames are accurate to (8*7.79) 1/16"!!!
I have to agree with the sentiment that laser cutting is indeed a very good thing, I personally hate hacking and filing, but the option to do it should be there or the skills disappear.
Of course, to get around this use scribing points set from vernier calipers which is what I do (did.....) anyway.
John
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abby
Statesman
Posts: 927
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Post by abby on Feb 21, 2007 9:32:59 GMT
Do people still measure with rulers ? I can't see the small divisions on mine so everything is measured with mike or digital vernier if its important. Laser cut parts only require a DXF file , so accurate size including holes is assured if the drawings are correct ! Note also the growing availability of 3D printing , soon model making will require more time on the computer than the work bench. Ah well back to my treadle Drummond ! Abby.
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Post by Shawki Shlemon on Feb 21, 2007 9:40:02 GMT
I think every one to his/her choice depending on skill,time , depth of pocket and what is one hobby, having an engine or building one. I have done both but mainly is cut/file etc..Out of 25 frames two were laser cut and I prefer doing it myself but at the same time I respect others opinion .To me it is a hobby and I try to make it as economical as possible .
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Post by Nexuas on Feb 21, 2007 9:55:20 GMT
As the advert says... " There is another way" I cut mine out on my milling machine... To be honest it would have been easier if the plans were marked up in decimal inches rather than fractional, as it would have saved a bit of time with the conversion chart and calculator. Also having an imperial set of end mills would have saved all the conversion of metic mills to decimal imperial, to work out travels of fractional distances. I was asked by a couple of club members if I had got them laser cut, so there must be something good about my system... being of the younger generation(ish) I am much more comfortable with decimal inches as this is what I get from the DRO and digital vernier. So maybe I am only in semi shadow?
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Post by Laurie_B on Feb 21, 2007 11:08:27 GMT
I seem to remember that quote!But the use being made of laser/water jet cutting does seem on the increase.There is also a school of thought that suggests that everything should be made by hand.It's an interesting argument. I agree with John Lee about cutting out main frames by hand.It is a long slog of chain-drilling,hacksawing,filing,even resorting to the milling machine at times.Having thus made the main frames for my 5" Gauge BR Std Class 2 (and a 'Doris' previously) by hand,I know how John feels!However,having now reached the rolling chassis stage I do have the (muscle aching) satisfaction of having made the frames myself. Now I am concentrating on the completing tender,before proceeding any further with the loco.I must admit the thought of having to hack out another pair of frames didn't exactly inspire.So I had them,and parts for the front drag box,cut by www.sciss.co.uk .As I don't haven't CAD (yet!) I was pleased to read on their website that they were "happy to receive drawings on sheet paper". The cost of the parts quoted was,I thought,very reasonable,and they arrived a few weeks after placing my order.And I was very pleased with the results. I had decided (to save a little on cost) that I would subsequently mark out and drill all the holes in the frames myself.As I mentioned on another thread,I prefer to use a surface plate,angle plate and vernier height gauge (with scribing tip),to quickly and accurately mark out the frames.Here,decimal dimensions do have a distinct advantage.To gain extra height when measuring along the frames,I sit the height gauge on a stack of parallels.Well,it seems to have worked! Personally I think laser/water jet cutting is a very good idea,as it allows model engineers to take advantage of new technologies,and save themselves a lot of time,while not wishing to decry traditional skills.And after all,there is still a lot of accurate machining and fitting work still required in building model locos,traction engines stationary steam engines etc.
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Post by ron on Feb 21, 2007 12:19:06 GMT
I'm all for it as well, I can hack and file with the best of them, learned it the hard way as an apprentice, so if I can avoid it I do. I bought lazer and water cut parts for Simplex and for what they cost versus the amount of tedious work saved I think it's money well spent. In the grand scheme of what a loco costs to build a few lazer cut parts isn't going to make a huge difference to the final price. Ron
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dscott
Elder Statesman
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Post by dscott on Feb 21, 2007 13:10:44 GMT
Now some of you may have seen my scale loco designs, lower down the page or should I say scroll down with the mouse. The 2 44XX frames and the 2 517 frames ( see 51XX Prairie tank images ) were cut out by hand and milled on the Dore Westbury. Now the River Class has inside frames 2mm, a sandwich of 10mm or 3/8" and 2 plates finely cut of 1.2mm. ( each side ) Dam it only shows one side in the photographs!!! if we started cutting now all the dimentions would have to be altered as it would be far past 2010 by the time they were finished. Thats the year, not the time. Oh and I forgot to mention the tender, again of sandwich construction. And looking like some Honiton lace. So for some engines lazer cutting is the only practical way of spending any time with your family. I am also watching the cnc camp with the same ammount of interest as bits for these are constantly comming down in price.
David.
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Post by Jo on Feb 21, 2007 13:37:17 GMT
It is the old argument: Where is the break between what you have built/what was brought that enables your to claim that it is all your own work?
There is nothing better than a set of 5" loco frames to remind you how to file flat and square and to within a fraction of an inch. Good practise 'cose you will shortly need it on more interesting fiddly bits. And it is not as time consuming as you might think my set of Stanier tender frames took about 3 hours from start to finish. I know that Black gates do them for £42 a set and maybe if I had had to pay for the material it may have been worth while.
I will be able to proudly say it's all my own work... but then again I did not make the patterns for the castings.
Jo
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Myford Matt
Statesman
There are two ways to run a railway, the Great Western way, and the wrong way.
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Post by Myford Matt on Feb 21, 2007 13:53:41 GMT
Jo - absolutely spot on. I like the idea of saying 'all my own work', but you are right to ask where to draw this line. I think for me it is to try and mimic traditional methods, which may involve a bit of muscle building, but it's hardly an impossible task. I think the castings point is good, but whereas most of know how to use a saw/drill/file, knowledge of and access to casting equipment is much more of a tall order. So I content myself with the knowledge that castings are a legitimate third party activity, especially when you consider that most castings could very easily be swapped for lengths of bar or flat. So really the only bit on my LBSC Pansy which I cannot honestly say I made (or could have easily) are the wheels. Maybe after I've done a few frames I'll feel different. I'll be able to say been there, done that - why bother again?! Of course if you're really serious you'd dig our own coal, copper, tin and iron ore. Anything else is just cheating...
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simonwass
Part of the e-furniture
Cecil Pagets 2-6-2 of 1908. Engine number 2299. Would make a fascinating model....
Posts: 472
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Post by simonwass on Feb 21, 2007 17:33:54 GMT
The thing is with my view of the hobby, I'm a model engineer, I make things. I don't draw a part and shell out money and have it made for me, this seems to be a modern trend in the hobby, you may as well get a Modelworks kit. If I see a design that requires by the choice of its designer that many parts have to be professionally made for me, I will not buy into that design. Most accept having to buy wheel castings and a pressure gauge, anything more is a short cut.
The 3205 needs laser cut frames (and more than likely the rest of the platework) as its measurements are to 0.001 accuracy. I could jog drill and mill out but it shouldn't be necessary. The 2-6-4 of D Hewsons. You need to spend well into £1000 on lost wax castings as he doesn't give measurements for bits he wants us all to buy from him, the drawings are not complete. I would have liked to make this engine but 'I want to make it', I don't want to use every possible short cut as I haven't truely made it. Looks like I'm in a modern minority here! What some may find hard to understand is I'm of the age to be brought up with computers and my year at school was the last to do metalwork.
Andy, you make the point on true scale, everything will be rounded to 1/32 (1/64 only where necessary). Turned parts will be more to true scale than the platework. I'm only going for 1.54 as there is a problem due to 7.25 not being 1.54th scale of 56.5" gauge. The frames being 'too wide' makes fitting something between a compromise, and I rarely compromise. My 8th scale 14xx (not a Dart) complete frames cost £20 from a local steel holder, I didn't even bother asking how much laser or water cuts plates would be. It might take me 2 or 3 days to mark, cut and drill.
Frames, laser cut or buy plate and make. Castings, a few choices here; cut from solid; make patterns and have cast; sand castings bought; sand castings done DIY; lost wax needing little work. Difficult one this.... Valve gear, laser cut or make. Boiler, buy complete or make. Boiler fittings, buy complete or make. Tanks, cab, tender (general platework), laser cut or make. Nuts, bolts & rivets, buy or make. (I know someone who made every nut, bolt, washer and rivet)
Obviously this is all just my take on the subject, everyone else has their own views. Anyone that tries to tell me they have made their loco when its got all laser cut platework and a commercial boiler......
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Post by 3405jimmy on Feb 21, 2007 18:19:46 GMT
Seems like a bit of a fundamentalist view if you can only buy wheel castings and a pressure gauge to qualify as the builder. I think from now on I will describe myself as a model assembler.
I’m still having fun though.
Jim
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Myford Matt
Statesman
There are two ways to run a railway, the Great Western way, and the wrong way.
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Post by Myford Matt on Feb 21, 2007 18:57:32 GMT
I agree with you Simon, so that's at least three of us with Jo!
That said I wouldn't dream of looking down my nose at anyone with a different take on this. It's what I feel happy with, but other folks will find their own route to ME nirvana. As Jimmy rightly says, it's about having fun, not establishing unattainable levels of manufacturing purity. Where next? - mix our own paint, draw our own tubing?
MM
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John Lee
Part of the e-furniture
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Post by John Lee on Feb 21, 2007 18:58:48 GMT
Seems like a bit of a fundamentalist view if you can only buy wheel castings and a pressure gauge to qualify as the builder. I think from now on I will describe myself as a model assembler. I’m still having fun though. Jim No need for that Jim I think, even the kit builders have a hard slog ahead, and if they bought from Winsons's even more so... ;D to revive a very old thread It was me who made the point about the1/64ths I think, , maybe Andy did too, but its a serious point. If your fellow modellers, or even the rather anal (IMHO) judges at an ME exhibition can tell the difference, and they actually care, well OK...its just an ego trip perhaps. Like Ron, I was apprentice trained, for 5 years no expense spared thanks to the MOD, hence I hate hacking and filing . For this reason only I would go for laser cutting. But I still regret the lost skills. What happens when you want to slightly shorten your slide valve because the its slightly too long? Can you file square and accurately? Or do you want to farm the job out again? We each have our choices; as long as ME continues as a very diverse pursuit, its not a problem. You can throw money at it, or still build little 2 1/2 guage loco's, skill and enthusiasm will prevail if you really enjoy the heart of the hobby...which is...I would suggest...do as you please Regards, John
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k1
Member
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Post by k1 on Feb 21, 2007 19:04:11 GMT
I for one would be interested then to hear the justification for buying the wheel castings. Surely a "real" model engineer could cast their own? Presumably it comes down to justifiable time and expense and that will be different for everyone. I think it's rather unfair to decry the efforts of those who may choose to buy in certain components because they personally can't justify the time or the capital outlay for machinery/tooling to do some jobs, particularly in the case of a first project. Conversely for some people it may well be worth spending an entire week filing some pieces from solid in order to save a few bob and maybe even just for the satisfaction of being able to say they did it. Stuart
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Myford Matt
Statesman
There are two ways to run a railway, the Great Western way, and the wrong way.
Posts: 621
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Post by Myford Matt on Feb 21, 2007 19:06:30 GMT
I think one of the reasons I shy away from laser cutting is that it doesn't feel right for a pre-war loco. My 5" pannier tank was designed in the 30s ( I think) and the model version in the late 50s. Many were made with treadle lathes and a paraffin lamp on the kitchen table. Lasers seem a a bit like cheating, or rather, a bit out of character with the spirit of the model. I expect LBSC would scoff and say technology's there to be used, but in a digital world it's nice to do a few things the old way.
MM
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John Lee
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Post by John Lee on Feb 21, 2007 19:34:40 GMT
I for one would be interested then to hear the justification for buying the wheel castings. Surely a "real" model engineer could cast their own? Stuart I take that this is tongue in cheek. Yes I was taught how to sand cast too. Equally boring as fitting and filing IMHO. As most people will discover as they try to fettle down their expensive castings from suppliers. To a later post, nothing is "cheating" Matt, I bought my riding trucks second hand, after all, that is only where you park your *rse, water and coal,....which you will do very none scale.... unless you want to resize yourself....... ;D It's been said before... the beauty of the ME hobby is that you do as you please... go rivet counting with a steam loco or go drive around with a kit battery electric thing, all are enthusiasts John
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Myford Matt
Statesman
There are two ways to run a railway, the Great Western way, and the wrong way.
Posts: 621
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Post by Myford Matt on Feb 21, 2007 19:39:53 GMT
Hi JL
I could do with a bit of resizing, been "cheating" on the diet again. Need to drop down a gauge.
;D
MM
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