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Post by stantheman on Feb 28, 2007 18:37:50 GMT
Well said Lurkio, us old fashioned engineers were not able to resort to CNC or anything like it, we just had to use what skills we were taught and in some cases the skills we we able to show we had a 'natural gift' for (?) Bye the way, who says we are sane? Stan
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Post by greasemonkey on Feb 28, 2007 21:00:27 GMT
Hi All An interesting discussion yet lets not forget that there are a multitude of design already out there that can be built using only a hacksaw for those that wish and only have what can be described as a minimum of castings available from the usual suppliers. Are these new designs not aimed at the more technologically aware generation, with less practical skill and time, who not having the hangups of wanting to make 'everything' themselves, are quite happy to buy in what suits them and still enjoy making some very attractive models. The last thing we all really want is for the hobby to remain the exclusive domain of the retired toolmaker (in rapidly reducing numbers) when there are some folk out there with very different skills who aspire to join us. If you don't want to buy the lost wax castings you the builder are free to do what the pattern maker has done, i.e. spend weeks looking at the prototype,examining photos and carving away in some way to make a pattern which visually represents the prototype and get your own parts cast or fabricate each one separately.
Andy
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Lurkio
Seasoned Member
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Post by Lurkio on Feb 28, 2007 23:50:09 GMT
Stan, maybe you're right. Any 'outsider' reading this lot would think we're all bl**dy mad.
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Post by Jo on Mar 1, 2007 7:36:36 GMT
Andy,
I think that what marks model engineers out from the next man is that we are technologically aware because we have the "Knowledge of how to combine resources to produce desired products and to solve problems".
Is it not the greatest pleasure being able to create something using tools that any sane person would tell you is totally impossible? Quality may be in the eye of the beholder, but satisfaction is in the heart of the model engineer.
Jo
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John Lee
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Post by John Lee on Mar 1, 2007 19:11:37 GMT
Totally Agree Jo,
I don't want to disappoint stan, but I have cnc'd my mill. It was an interesting project in itself and I did not need to throw money at it buying "kits to cnc your X3 mill" for £1000's.
It solved a problem, I do not need to laser cut stuff, its a simple process, from drawing to downloading to Mach 3, to zeroing my mill, to it being done. The crucial difference is that I have done it using my resources. Learning cnc machining is a modern skill, no harder or easier than learning how to use a hacksaw properly.
This sort of corresponds to another discussion recently, "why make tooling". I did it because I saw the need for (just an example) nameplates in the future. Simple now... and I can have it today, I don't have the time or patience either to wait for somebody else to produce my one off, nor do I want to pay them £'s to do so.
It is simply not an instant satisfaction hobby, which is a bit disconcerting for the future, but its my opinion, and I am full prepared to be told I am wrong, that you do need to invest the time to learn, or create, to get satisfaction from it.
As with the starter for this thread, about laser cutting, its all a time/patience/money/satisfaction balance IMHO. But the most important is satisfaction surely, as Jo says; other peoples opinions in this respect do not matter a jot.
Regards
John
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Post by stantheman on Mar 1, 2007 19:23:22 GMT
There was I, sat here thinking the 'thread' had been broken and done with........then............... John I have no problem with anyone progressing with fitting such a device to any machine suitable. I myself have 'struggled' for a long time without any form of modernisation on my own machines, until late last year. I had the chance to have a 'simple' three axis DRO and fit it to the mill. How have I ever managed without something as simple as that I do not know. Not sure I have the money or projects ahead to justify anything else, but we shall see.
Isn't to strange how the topics go around almost full circle, great stuff and a great way to spend a few minutes away from the problems of which part to produce next.
Stan.
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Post by stantheman on Mar 1, 2007 19:34:29 GMT
Just had a quick look at the Mach 3 website, certainly looks interesting. I like all of the coloured piccies. May look further into it and see what the bank manager says........ just in case. Is it really that easy to instal the motorisation? Stan. Thought I would dive in with this before the gang get waylaid by the metrication debate!
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John Lee
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Post by John Lee on Mar 1, 2007 19:56:02 GMT
Hehe..yes I got waylaid....
It's fairly simple Stan, just basic engineering on how to fit the motors, and still retain the manual facility when its a better option.
That is the hardest bit IMHO, from then on fitting the computer interfaces is black boxes to me, I am electrification dumb, but I do understand the computer end...it is, sadly and bored, my work these days.
Dirty fingernails in the office.... ;D
Regards,
John
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Post by epicyclicgearbox on Mar 4, 2007 1:35:10 GMT
Hacksaw, File and Milling Machine by all means.
Defaets the object if one "buys it in"
Keep old skills alive! Who cares how long it takes.
Yours Faithfully
Epicyclicgearbox
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S.D.L.
Seasoned Member
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Post by S.D.L. on Mar 4, 2007 8:22:49 GMT
If looking to produce a SCALE model laser cutting can provide a nice representation of a Flame cut edge, which is how I Guess they did it in 1:1 size.
Steve Larner
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S.D.L.
Seasoned Member
Posts: 107
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Post by S.D.L. on Mar 4, 2007 8:25:10 GMT
Hacksaw, File and Milling Machine by all means.
Defaets the object if one "buys it in" Whats with these new fangled American Ideas of Milling machines surley it should be shaper and planers to be a true englishman. Steve Larner
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John Lee
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Post by John Lee on Mar 5, 2007 21:34:04 GMT
Hacksaw, File and Milling Machine by all means.
Defaets the object if one "buys it in" Whats with these new fangled American Ideas of Milling machines surley it should be shaper and planers to be a true englishman. Steve Larner We had "Mr Laser" giving his talk in the York club recently, just a few observations: .. a commercial advertisment .. he seems to be a bit " you old farts know nothing" and somewhat arrogant .. after he trotted off to home..yep trotted..was observed through a window Much laughter and do whatever suits you Regards, John
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Post by Shawki Shlemon on Mar 6, 2007 6:50:36 GMT
Exactly I fully agree
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Post by thefodenman on Mar 9, 2007 15:50:57 GMT
OK so I've watched this thread go back and forth and frankly I'm a bit mistified. Are we all a bunch of 'Ludites'?? who are not prepared to embrace change?. I can file as good as the next man, but if I have the cash and want it quick then why not lasered parts?. Are we really going to continually knock something new, after all some said Mr Stevensons new fangled invention would not catch on, give me a horse and cart any day! NOT. I suppose the 3 1/2 lads laughed at those who wanted something bigger and so on. We seem too quick to ridicule anthing new in this hobby. Next you'll be telling me man set foot on the moon. Bemused thefodenman!!!!
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Post by gilesengineer on Mar 9, 2007 16:33:27 GMT
I can chain drill, hacksaw and file with the rest of them ....... but I don't want to always do that just to prove a point....... (It would be a shame though, if people never learnt to use hand tools properly - the only real way of learning a 'feel' for the materials) Surely, the important aspect (apart from simply doing what we enjoy) is that every time, we push a little further, stretch ourselves, and learn more skills?
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John Lee
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Post by John Lee on Mar 9, 2007 19:03:20 GMT
Well fodenman and Giles,
Surely that is the point. We all have a different time/money/skill balance and different aspirations. Some want the satisfaction of having built every bit themselves, and some just want a runner, and some want a super machine with all the bits and blobs in the right place, but have more money than time, or more money than skill, or more money than patience even.
Nevertheless, you can laser cut your frames, cnc your mill as I have done so I don't need to laser cut anything (although I might if it was quicker), but still the basic skills of filing, cutting, getting around problems and general fitting will be needed. If you can't do that you can throw as much money at it as you like, and it still will not work. These skills will always be needed, even kit builders soon find this out (and, I hastily add, I have nothing against that)
There are some luddites on here fodenman, bless em, but twas always thus. I would rather learn something new; engineering is about innovation is it not?
As long as people recognise that one of the joys of ME is that you can do exactly as you want, then all is well IMHO. As said, Mr Stevenson's invention etc etc
Regards,
John
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paul
Member
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Post by paul on Mar 9, 2007 21:54:57 GMT
Hour and a half spent chain-drilling then filing an 11mm radius curve on the top of a steel trunk-guide support. Only need to do the curved sides now! Eeek! Needs must when the devil drives...
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Post by thefodenman on Mar 10, 2007 6:01:32 GMT
I agree entirely with John Lee's point ' As long as people recognise that one of the joys of ME is that you can do exactly as you want, then all is well IMHO. As said, Mr Stevenson's invention etc etc'This is exactly my point, we should not castergate others for the way they do things or the way they achive it by another method, we can all learn something froim listerning to someone else. Hacksaws are good, but so is Laser too.
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Post by Shawki Shlemon on Mar 10, 2007 10:13:22 GMT
I have been in this hobby for more than 26 Years and I have seen people with engines that they built from scratch ,partly build ,rebuild , acquired and some of these were crab , good , great looking bad runners ,not so good looking great runners and great looking and good runners .All these people were proud of their models and enjoyed the hobby just the same. Let us learn from each other and respect everyone point of vie , we are all wright .
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Post by havoc on Mar 10, 2007 21:59:32 GMT
I never had the urge to chain drill anything. A rough hacksaw job and a nice file is all I need. I got to the army stock one day and stocked up a few nice files. Up to 50cmx5cm ones. Just plain fun if you get busy with those ones. I don't even think to use them on brass, it might go too fast...
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