bazp
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Posts: 17
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Post by bazp on Feb 26, 2007 14:39:15 GMT
I have a mystery set of frames. I would like to identify them but the furthest I can get is that it is a (probably) 5" gauge (definately) 4-4-0. Can anyone help me any further? Measurements as follows:
8" between the driving axles, 8" between the front driver and the rear axle of the front bogie and 9.75" between the two bogie axles. The 6 wheeled tender has 7" between the axles. The main frame is 33.5" in length and the tender frame is 20.75".
Does anyone have any idea what loco these are from? I am planning on selling them, but would like to know what they are from first!
Ta Baz
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John Lee
Part of the e-furniture
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Post by John Lee on Feb 26, 2007 18:05:55 GMT
I would suggest to put some a picture up in profile, that will show inside or outside motion etc.
Somebody would recognise it for certain if they have built one by traditional methods!!
At that size it is almost certainly 5" gauge, Possibly, just possibly from the dimensions it's an LBSC "Maid of Kent", and they are probably the most common "in the wild" 4-4-0 I think.
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bazp
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Post by bazp on Feb 26, 2007 18:46:24 GMT
Thats what I figured too, but a friend measured his Maid of Kent and the measurements didn't quite add up. Now I am home though I can post a pic! This is all I have, I don't know whether the the little truck bit goes with it or not. It doesn't seem to fit so I don't think so.
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Post by GeorgeRay on Feb 26, 2007 20:19:41 GMT
Are you certain about the bogie wheelbase because its about 2inches longer than any respectable bogie should be. The longest bogie wheelbase for a british prototype that I thought existed would work out at about 8inches that corresponds to the Adams 7ft 6 bogies. Is it possile that the frames are for Salisbury an Adams LSWR 4-4-0. The measurements for that would work out at something like 8" for the bogie wheelbase and just over 9 1/2" between the driving wheels. The tender would be just under 7" between the axles. These correspond to protype dimensions of 7'6" bogie wheelbase, 9' driving wheel spacing and 13' tender wheelbase equally spaced. The other dimension that might confirm a Salisbury is 8 1/4" bogie centre to front driving axle corresponding to 7'9". If the picture was visible and it isn't to me the frame outline would tell. There is no picture when I try to view it.
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JohnP
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Post by JohnP on Feb 26, 2007 20:26:46 GMT
Are you sure the parts are for the same loco? The bogie wheelbase is 4.75" from the bogie dimensions, but the frame cut outs are 9.75".
Or am I missing something? I may have my stupid head on tonight....
JohnP
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bazp
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Post by bazp on Feb 26, 2007 20:32:44 GMT
I got them from the same person at the same time supposedly for the same loco! Which I doubt! They could all be for different locos!
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Post by steammadman on Feb 26, 2007 22:02:37 GMT
Hi Bazp, They certainly look like "MAID of KENT", i have made 2, but a few years ago, (about 30), so ican't remember the wheel centers. How ever i still have the drawings,old blue prints,i will look them out and check them during the next few days. Please dont ask for copies,they don't copy, and they are too old and brittle to lay very flat.
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Post by baggo on Feb 27, 2007 1:26:47 GMT
Looking at the photos, can I suggest that the outer 9.75" and the 8" dimensions are reversed thus making the main axle centres 9.75" and the bogie axle centres 8"? That would make more sense. As GeorgeRay suggests, the frames have a distinct Adams LSWR flavour about them. They definitely are not Maid of Kent.
John
Another thought - the frames are very short behind the rear axle horns so they could be for a 4-4-2 Atlantic which would have a rear sub frame attached.
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JohnP
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Post by JohnP on Feb 27, 2007 13:12:01 GMT
I've just had another look. That bogie frame can't be for 5" gauge. If it's 4.725" from side to side then there isn't enough room to get a 5" wheelset and horns outside of it, so my guess is it's a 3 1/2" bogie with outside frames - which is probably the preferred arrangement anyway (better resistance to rolling from side to side).
JohnP
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Post by GeorgeRay on Feb 27, 2007 20:22:03 GMT
I can't see the picture at all the the board so have tried looking in photobucket where I can only view the small image. However this appears to show a projection on the main frames between the driving wheel cut outs that would be the pivot point for the equalising beam this is a prominent feature of the Adams 4-4-0s. I think that it is highly probable therefore that these frames are for Salisbury. Particularly since this is obviously for an outside cylinder loco and the tender frames also look very like the profile for Salisbury although the end with the hole goes to the back. Baggo, the Adams 4-4-0s had big wheels and the distance from the trailing axle to the rear of the frames was only 9" longer than half the wheel diameter, which resulted in a rear overhang of 4'3". The scale length of the frames would be just over 33".
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Post by baggo on Feb 27, 2007 21:43:34 GMT
Hi George,
I've had a look at some pictures of 'Salisbury' and the tops of the frames at the front appear to be straight rather than curved as on the 'mystery' ones. Is it possible the frames are for a T3 (or the similar X6) as they have the curved frame tops in front of the smokebox?
John
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Post by steammadman on Feb 27, 2007 22:40:41 GMT
just had a look at my MAIDof KENT drawings,the ga and frame drawing is far too fragile to open up, but the bogie is ok. which sows a axle centres of 6-5/8ins , with an overall lenghth of 9- 3/4 ins overall, wich shows this IS NOT A MAID of KENT chassis
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bazp
Active Member
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Post by bazp on Feb 28, 2007 9:05:45 GMT
Hey, are you guys implying that I can't measure correctly?!!!! Cos you'd be right The pic above is wrong! It should be, as Baggo suggested, 9.75" between the main axles and 8" between the bogie axles! So are we (almost) agreed that it is an LSWR Adams loco of some description?
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Post by GeorgeRay on Feb 28, 2007 15:16:19 GMT
Hi John I haven't found the picture that I had of Salisbury but I always believed that it was supposed to be a T6, so I had based my comments on the drawings and photographs that I have for the X6,T6 and T3 classes for which the major differences were wheel diameters. The picture has suddenly become visible and I am now certain that the frames are for an Adams 4-4-0 because of the equalising beam pivot but which class is open to question. Salisbury is the only design that drawings and castings are available for as far as I know. They can be obtained from GLR. George
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Post by bobpendleton on Mar 1, 2007 14:08:54 GMT
George, Baz
I don't know if this helps but Martin Evans' Adams T6 Flyer was serialised in ME, 4043-4052 (1997)
The frames are shown in 4044 and the bogie spacing is at 8" centres, the horn blocks at 9 9/16 in. I haven't quite understood how to append a drawing but if Baz (I know who she is!) would like to borrow the magazines she knows how to contact me.
From what little I know about these things, I rather doubt that this is what we're looking for (or maybe someone made a mess of his marking out?)
BobP
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Post by bobpendleton on Mar 1, 2007 15:13:17 GMT
PS: The tender frames look right at 20 7/8 (3 11/16 + 2 x 6 7/8 + 3 7/16 - how I love those subs and supers!)
BP
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Post by GeorgeRay on Mar 1, 2007 19:59:24 GMT
Bob I'd forgotten the Martin Evans design. However there is a reverse curve at the front of the frames for a T6 as shown on Martins frame drawing and that curve isn't there on Bazz frames. I still can't find the picture of Salisbury to confirm what class it is meant to represent. The coupled wheelbase of the smaller wheeled locos was 6" longer than for the T6 and the frames didn't have the reverse curve at the front so if Salisbury is a T3 then the frames would appear to be right for that.
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Post by spurley on Mar 1, 2007 20:51:24 GMT
I had a look at GLR's website and whilst they list 'Salisbury' and show a picture it is one of the rare ones that doesn't seem to have a working link (tonight anyway!). Here is the link to their site www.modelmakingsupplies.co.uk/glr/start.html (page 2 of 'Locos) which describes it as a '460 class', not quite sure what that is so I'll have a look at D.L Bradley and see if I can post a picture tomorrow when I get home. Cheers Brian
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Post by baggo on Mar 1, 2007 21:13:59 GMT
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Post by bobpendleton on Mar 1, 2007 21:38:50 GMT
George,
Now there's a thing... My ME Index says "Adams T3, Volume 151, Issue 3708, Page 19". This is supposed to be under "What's in Store" - but it isn't! In the morning I'll go down and look at neighbouring volumes to see if that is some sort of mis-print.
Really, I have no place in this discussion at all as my practical experience is almost nil. However, I did put Baz up to approaching the Group and will plead that the interest and variety of answers to date is sufficient justification.
Agreed, the outline is not the same and as we have seen the measurements are far from ME's ME (I like that!) design. My earlier PS mentioned that despite these differences the tender outline tallies very closely. It is obvious though that Baz's 'little truck' (the bogie) is not the same at all. The central casting is only 2 3/4" wide...
Maybe a closer examination tomorrow of the darkest corners of my shed - er, workshop - will reveal something more positive.
Incidentally, I see that Martin had added a note to Part 6 of his series drawing attention to Fairclough and Wirral's book 'Southern Steam Locomotive Survey, Adams Classes', ISBN 0 85 153 2772
Bob
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