Petition against Metrication

[paul]

Alan, I think there is a small advantage in metric insofar as it 'fits in' with the number system we use (which is in turn based on the number of digits on two hands. OK a foot might at one time have been a foot's length [or a 6th of a 'span', which is pretty constant] but it's a rather arbitrary measurement).

Thinking further, imperial is totally nutty! 12 inches to a foot would 'suggest' smaller measurements than an inch be in twelfths but I've not seen that fraction on any drawing. Why 16ths or 32nds? Simply because they are the smallest discernible-by-eye fractions?

I don't think there are any real advantages to metric except it may be easier on the brain for learners but there's no denying it is much more logical.

[Laurie_B]

The change-over to full metrication is inevitable,so I shall not be signing the petition.The metric system is,in my view much easier to use than the old imperial system of odd fractions,feet,inches,yards,chains,perches,rods and poles!
Adapt or die!
I was metricated some years ago.......didn't half make my eyes water........

[chameleonrob]

personally the faster we to metric the better, imperial machines will be cheap and I could then afford decent kit, I can live with both and the cost of a pocket calculator.

rob

[SteveW]

Guys,

Both systems are great for doing stuff and they are different, it's horses for courses and 'vive la difference'. As I recall one was based on a bloke (a king) the other on our planet earth.

I'm not into signing petitions but I am aware that there are plans to ban imperial measurements in commercial use and I do have a small problem with that but life is too short to really worry about it. Seems our Parliamentarians have nothing else to do these day but to ban stuff but at least the fox is now safe . Maybe there is scope here for another petition.

The debate between the two systems is as valid as selling bananas in lbs or Kgms. Bananas come in bananas, one two, three etc. We used to buy petrol by the gallon. I tend to buy it by the tank full and have long adjusted to the big numbers involved.

[simonwass]

So what happens in 2009 when I need to replace a 1/4" drill or a 3/8 x 40 tap? Do I have to use a 6.3 or 6.4mm equivilent drill, and a 10mm x 0.75 tap?
When the leadscrew on your 40 year old imperial ML7 finally wears out, will Myfords be able to sell you a replacement?
What about all our loco designs, are we not to be able to purchase plans because they are in imperial and suppliers will be breaking the law if they sell them?

Another rule dictating a path by ruling out alternatives. Metric may have its uses but so has imperial, what benefits do we have by having to ask for 454g of cheese? This will cost everyone somehow and has no positive advantages other than lack of choice.

[SteveW]

Simon,

You are absolutely correct. However, I suspect our legislators could care less. Chances are that any debate will be at a silly time and no one will turn up and it'll roll through unopposed.

Maybe we shoud start hoarding stuff and start a black market when the price go up.

[baggo]

Personally I think the title of the post is misleading and perhaps causing some confusion. The petition quite clearly is not a petition against metrication but a petition against the total ban of the use of imperial units (which is something totally different!)

John

[eightpot]

Unfortunately this thread is mis-titled. It should have been 'Petition Against Making The Use Of Imperial Measurements Illegal'. I also wonder how many of the contributors have actually read this Petition before commenting. It is not a matter of whether one system is better than the other, but a matter of choice. A pamphlet issued by the Government as part of the 1975 Referendum seeking a 'Yes' vote to remain in what was then the 'Common Market', gave us a number of assurances, this, I regard as a Contract.

One of them was that 'Our way of life would remain the same'. My way of life involves the use of Imperial weights and measures. This assurance is now being cast aside (as have all the others, I might add) and it is Government (comprising both the major parties that have held power since 1975) that is in Breach of Contract.

I therefore consider myself free to repudiate the 'Common Market' and it's successors - currently the 'European Union', it's Laws, Regulations and Directives, and propose to carry on using Imperial weights and measures after 2009.

At the risk of going 'off-topic', I would like to point out that in this country 'Power' belongs to the People and is only on loan to whichever Government that has been voted into office at a General Election. It is not for any Government to give this Power away, whether to the EU, or anyone else. This country has been surrendered not to military, but political invasion. Those that have carried this out are nothing less than traitors.

[Myford Matt]

[Myford Matt]

Little Witherington wheel tappers and shunters club anti-metrication committee meeting

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU7Psp3mPfw

[John Lee]

Matt, ;D

Eightpot, not only was the petition read before comment, but also the proposed legislation was understood before raising a petition.

I assume that the same was done; it has been discussed here before but the implications are not quite as far reaching as emasculating personal freedoms. You won't get arrested in your workshop for using an Acme tap , nor will Myfords be prosecuted for selling an imperial leadscrew.

Anybody who has lived through the last even 20 years has seen their way of life changed through influences far more pernicious than anything that politicians can legislate, from the selfishness of big business in USA in the Kyoto protocol, to the huge changes in everybodys life due to the widespread influence of computerisation. The world is a far different place than in my fathers day, and then was than in his fathers day.

It all rather smacks of those that rioted against industralisation, the Luddites of the early 1800's, pointless, futile and ultimately doomed to fail. Except doing it in a rather pointless way, a petition that will be ignored anyway.

Regards,

John

[alanstepney]

For anyone interested in the legalities of the present attitude to metrication (in the UK) and other similar issues, do a search for Ashley Mote, who is one of our MEP's and regularly writes articles revealing government acts that are illegal.
(Fixed penalties for example.)

[Jo]

Hi Guys,

I am all for decimation. Every drawing with fractions I have to convert to decimals for it to be compatible with my measurement instruments. I have no hangups over the underlying standard.

But I still conceptualise in inches (= length of the thumb) and feet (mine are smaller than most of yours.... but we know what we mean). As for a metre its about the length from your finger tips to your nose, or is that a yard? Who cares?

Jo

[Boadicea]

I would like to point out that in this country 'Power' belongs to the People and is only on loan to whichever Government that has been voted into office at a General Election. It is not for any Government to give this Power away, whether to the EU, or anyone else. This country has been surrendered not to military, but political invasion. Those that have carried this out are nothing less than traitors.

Maybe, but WE delegated that power to THEM and nobody ever really gets off their rump to challenge the decisions THEY make on OUR behalf.

Back on topic....

We are very good in this country at going half-way, and that is where we are.

• It would be really nice just to have ONE system, therefore we should keep moving towards metric.
  
• As new items become available, they should be metric and then over a period of time we will have rolled over to it (including model designs). If we do not, we will remain in this transit state.
• That is what the legislation is trying to do.
  
• If there is a sound engineering reason for something not being metric, then keep it imperial, but I cannot think of a good example.
  
• I repeat, petitions are just thrown aside and trodden underfoot like used contraceptives. At best they just take the protestor's eye off the ball.
  
  

Regards, Bo.

[Laurie_B]

simonwass said:

So what happens in 2009 when I need to replace a 1/4" drill or a 3/8 x 40 tap? Do I have to use a 6.3 or 6.4mm equivilent drill, and a 10mm x 0.75 tap?
When the leadscrew on your 40 year old imperial ML7 finally wears out, will Myfords be able to sell you a replacement?
What about all our loco designs, are we not to be able to purchase plans because they are in imperial and suppliers will be breaking the law if they sell them?

Another rule dictating a path by ruling out alternatives. Metric may have its uses but so has imperial, what benefits do we have by having to ask for 454g of cheese? This will cost everyone somehow and has no positive advantages other than lack of choice.

Very good questions,Simon.This certainly will become a big problem in time,which maybe the model engineering world should start thinking about sooner rather than later.
Regarding model designs,Anthony Mount has already taken a lead by publishing designs for some of his stationary engines using metric dimensions.Should the other current-day designers be following Anthony's lead,or at least providing drawings sets in metric as well as in imperial?That way,when metrication does eventually hit home,we modellers will be at least partly prepared for the inevitable.
As for the older designs,unless someone is prepared to redraw/redimension them,then they will become a problem area if we let it.
And as a Myford owner myself,as you rightly point out,this could become very problematic too.Presumably the management of Myfords have already had some thoughts on this,it would be interesting to see what their policy will be to providing spares for 'imperial' machines in the future.

[Noddy]

As a forty something who was only taught in metric, I'm pretty much bilingual in metric and imperial linear measurements. True some of the fractional inches still confuse me, but with decimal inches (in use certainly before 1850, as the Enfield arsenal was working to "thous"), what is so confusing?

European standard pipe fittings are imperial
BA threads are metric
Confusion?

With CAD I can scale my drawings in any system of linear measurement (anyone for rods and perches?). no confusion there.

Following from the CAD, CNC will not be affected , so long as the units are consistent.

For work, I use metric alone, I need to for comunicating my results.

So long as I know what system is being used, I can work with it, and Can't help smiling when my contempories mix units in a conversation.

As for britain not being a manufacturing nation, just cast your minds back to the incompetant state interference and labour disputes of the '70's, couple that with an apalling standard of education, and I don't think we need bother looking to systems of measurement to blame.

[Tel]

So what happens in 2009 when I need to replace a 1/4" drill or a 3/8 x 40 tap? Do I have to use a 6.3 or 6.4mm equivilent drill, and a 10mm x 0.75 tap?

30 odd years on all these things (imperial tooling and bolts) are still freely available over here. In the early days our govt. tried to go 'metric only' but it was, of course, unworkable and we now exist in a multi-measurement world. Hardware store bolts, for example, are still Whitworth and it is dfifficult to find metric ones.

One of the reasons, of course, is that any country with any pretensions of doing 'export' business need to produce stuff in both the new and old money - especially anyone hoping to do business in America.

P&N here still do a full range in both systems.

[S.D.L.]

One of the reasons, of course, is that any country with any pretensions of doing 'export' business need to produce stuff in both the new and old money - especially anyone hoping to do business in America.

Having gone to America to comission several systems when getting extra bits from hardware stores I have had no problem getting metric but have never seen whitworth of BSF on sale at a store.

USA imports loads of stuff in meric.

Steve Larner

[Tel]

USA imports loads of stuff in metric

.... and makes practically nothing in it. Their basic bolt comes in UNC/UNF - including them weird number sizes in the sub-1/4" range.

In the seventies, when we changed, a big part of the reason was that America was gearing up to do likewise. They thought better of it, we pushed ahead.

Not that I have any problem working either system. Over the years my workshop has evolved to cope with both.

[dscott]

Dear Measure rs,
Several months ago when during the odd days, Dec 1,3,5, etc I decided to check, and re-draw the S.I.M.P. engine. Now with so many of the parts having only 4 or 6 or 8 holes in them, a cunning plan to do metric dimensions on the left and imperial on the right began to unfold. Then using old and new sizes 2" or 50mm lead to putting a line down the center. Then in some cases for the front suspension,for example. Where we loose almost an 1/8" on the frame going from 1 1/4" square down to 30mm square section, we need to have 2 sizes of spacer.
So in my experience even a simple design, can be made complex using double dimensions. But by looking and working carefully in either one, or the other things are working out well.

Yesterday being an odd day ( March the first ) . did the buffers, crank pins and connecting rods, resisting the temptation to put 3/64" radius curves on the buffers, Now you could use children's building blocks for these and screw them in with a 30mm by 4mm screw, or a (1 1/4" X 10.)Now I have made it easy.

David.

Relaxing after driving home through metric rain, we get more these days now it comes in liters!!!!!!!!!!