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Post by alanstepney on Mar 4, 2007 15:52:14 GMT
Havoc, the problem I have is that much of the "legislation" we are being lumbered with is actually illegal.
The government does NOT have a mandate for much that it is doing, and is sneaking through things that IT wants, not what the people want and have voted for. I have met many politicians, and despise all of them. Too many forget that they are there to serve the people not the other way round.
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Post by havoc on Mar 4, 2007 17:42:22 GMT
I don't even have to meet them to despice them On the other hand, I think that there are not many engineers that are fond of politics. But you seem to forget something. You say that what they do is illegal. Well, it isn't. AFAIK the UK has the same system as belgium with a separation of the powers (legislative, executive and legal). So if there isn't any law on it, then the legislative body can make any law they please. Only when there is a law regarding this, then it can be illegal. And normally, law are passed through some kind of legal check before being passed. I do know this is rather ideal, over here there have been passed some laws that were in collusion with other laws and that the court declared invalid but the parliament still passed though. So yes, it is rotten in the state of Denmark...
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John Lee
Part of the e-furniture
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Post by John Lee on Mar 4, 2007 19:34:42 GMT
May I introduce myself – I am “the old fart” who effectively started this hare running (politeness and common courtesy does not seem to be the strong suit of some contributors). I am indebted to Donald G for his efforts to support me and promote my petition, but the wording of the title of his post is, perhaps a little unfortunate and misleading. Anyone who takes the trouble to actually read the petition should realise that it is not “against” metrication at all. The words “metric” and “metrication” do not even feature in the petition! For the record and the benefit of those who cannot be bothered to read it before commenting, the petition reads as follows:- The Prime Minister is requested to secure permanent derogation from those aspects of European Union directive 80/181 which will, at the end of 2009, make the use of imperial units of measure illegal. I spent a large part of my professional career before retirement as Chief Engineer of part of a large multinational organisation. We worked quite happily in both metric and imperial systems for decades before Brussels started to interfere with our lives. After retirement I spent seven years running my own design and consultancy business designing special purpose lifting equipment. This work was carried out almost exclusively to metric standards. I regard the metric system as easier to use and more logical than imperial, particularly from an engineering point of view, and would be the last person to advocate abandoning it. (A pointless exercise anyway!). That is not what my petition is about. What it IS about is freedom of choice. We are supposed to be living in a free society. Why should a shopkeeper face criminal proceedings because he wishes to display the price of vegetables for sale in cost per pound as well as cost per Kilo? Don’t tell me it won’t happen – it already has! The imposition of such legislation is undemocratic, to say the least. If anyone is in any doubt about industries views on the situation try reading the report on the meeting held between representatives of a wide range of industries and the DTI in November 2006. I don't even know where to start about about this...... Vegetables mixed up with somebody called Norman? I did not call him an old fart. Who did? But c'mon... tell us all why you object to metrication...logically Regards John
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Post by Boadicea on Mar 5, 2007 8:20:23 GMT
MyfordMatt wrote: Totally agree - so let's get on with it! Bo.
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Myford Matt
Statesman
There are two ways to run a railway, the Great Western way, and the wrong way.
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Post by Myford Matt on Mar 5, 2007 8:50:24 GMT
Thanks Bo - always nice to be quoted, but I can't claim the credit for this one. I think it was John! MM
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Post by districtgrandmaste on Mar 5, 2007 10:31:07 GMT
This is a scary thread to get involved in - but John Lee asks - what is the logical objection to metrication. I feel the following
1. The drawings for many excellent models I would like to build in future are are in imperial dimensions. I do not want to spend time converting them - I'm not a draftsman.
2. I have my tooling where I can reach items quickly and know where they ought to be. Adding a set of Metric Reamers, Drill stand, collets into the workshop will take space and a separate store for materic sized material will really be a headache!
3. I have a Myford with DRO on the bed slide and a Tom Senior Miller that will need to be 'metricated' presumably again by DRO. That lot is going to set me back a tidy sum!
Really it's the cost/benefit equation in the end - I don't want to afford it if I can help it - so there!
I'm a mean lurker and shall watch further debate in interest.
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John Lee
Part of the e-furniture
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Post by John Lee on Mar 5, 2007 19:14:40 GMT
Hmmm ok, so the logical objection is that I will save some money and my workshop is organised like that. In balance against future generations will benefit, the economy will benefit and that over 93% of the the people in the world work in metric... ahhh...errr..ok... I understand your point of view ;D Even though it's a biased site, a few myths are dispelled here www.metric.org.uk/why/myths.htmThe ironic thing about all this, is that it's due to the ineptitude and inertia of successive governments that this was not a done deal 40 years ago Regards, John
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Post by modeng2000 on May 9, 2007 6:26:55 GMT
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Post by Boadicea on May 9, 2007 8:00:14 GMT
Chums - not too much dancing in the streets now. All it allows is both to be displayed - and nothing else. Displaying both could not be prevented anyway Being trumpeted as a monumental victory for common sense - IMHO it just makes the situation worse. Just a loop hole being mis-interpreted already. Either we are doing metric or we are not. No half pregnancies! ;D Regards, Bo.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2007 13:17:52 GMT
Hang about a second.
This is not about which system is best or who should use what, the petition clearly says the banning of imperial measure will harm the retoration or modification of historic products.
I am in the autumn of my years have used metric bolts etc for the restoration of my old cars ever since the imperial stuff became too expensive, don't much care for having to do it but I can't see any real problems with it however neither can I see how a total ban on imperial can serve any good purpose.
Sure make it illegal to manufacture new finished product in anything you prefer but don't abandon the old stuff to enforce that.
Can't see the harm or why anyone should get on their high horse over permitting the production of materials in imperial for the historic maintainance and repair of old products.
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Post by 3405jimmy on May 9, 2007 14:53:49 GMT
I remember reading somewhere that our EU parliamentary masters hate to look foolish, so I guess this victory for common sense had more to do with saving face than anything else.
Jim
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Post by Boadicea on May 9, 2007 16:58:34 GMT
Sorry Mr. Wayside I should have made it clear I was not commenting on the petition, but the EU response. Like I said, it (what the EU has said) is being misinterpreted already - all it means is you can quote the price of a pound of bananas IF YOU LIKE, but you MUST quote it in metric. Nothing has changed. Why is that a victory for common sense?
Regards, Bo.
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Post by steammadman on May 9, 2007 19:45:01 GMT
HOORAY--- HOORAY--- HOORAY !!!!!!!
SO THE " INCH" BRIGADE HAVE WON
IT LIVES, The "metric" monkeys have been defeated
LOMG LIVE THE "ENGLISH" Inches
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Post by AndrewP on May 9, 2007 22:48:54 GMT
Bo, I think the point is that without this change of mind it would have been illegal to use imperial measures even as a secondary indication after 2009. We know how good our public officials are at enforcing these rules now don't we? I make items in silver and gold and work exclusively in the metric system but I have customers who think in imperial - I recently made a ring that had to be 1 ounce of 750 gold, as I understand I would have broken the law if I had sold that ring as 1 ounce even if I had also described it with it's metric weight! - that's just plain silly in my mind Andy
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Tony K
Elder Statesman
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Post by Tony K on May 10, 2007 8:26:07 GMT
Andy, I agree, the reasons you and Wayside have given for keeping a supporting imperial system are sound, but I am sceptical about many people's motives for wanting to keep imperial. As Bo says, many are misinterpreting what has been said already - although something which generates so much joy in North Lincolnshire cannot be that bad! ;D In my cupboard I have big boxes of UNC and UNF taps and dyes which I would love to throw away, let alone Whitworth, but they all live on. I weaned myself off Fahrenheit (silly scale - 32 and 212?) completely - only to find I get talked at in Fahrenheit and have to convert to Centigrade (calling it Celsius is just complicating the matter for no reason). Horses and drinking water spring to mind, but I think we should all examine our motives closely on this. Is it overt joy at the expectation of an imperial support system for obsolete models and cars, or covert joy at another blow to metric? Will be at Harrogate probably Friday, sporting my new badge, looking for others. See you there. Regards, Tony.
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Post by Phil Sutton on May 10, 2007 20:05:12 GMT
Now that the EU have decided that we can keep our own imperial measurements,I suppose that this thread is now irrelivant.......... ;D ;D ;D
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Post by spurley on May 11, 2007 7:42:30 GMT
Ha ha irrelevant thread ;D Well pitched reply Phil Cheers Brian
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Post by havoc on May 11, 2007 21:38:29 GMT
Actually it are degrees Celcius (°C) just as it are Kelvin without degree (K).
While you may think this is a victory, in fact it will only hinder the UK. Just like they refuse to convert to the Euro. In fact I really wonder why the UK hasn't pulled out of the EEC and became a state of the US...
I think this is a very bad decision for the UK in the long term. But it's your funeral.
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Post by briansquibb on May 13, 2007 4:51:42 GMT
Keep this thread open - the anti UK people in charge will find another way to get it in, They have done this before - they appear to give way and everyone relaxes and then they dress it up as something else. Like the spy in the car boot, was pay as u go, now anti id theft.
We rejected the EU constitution - this week Blair signs a revised version without the promised referendum
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Tony K
Elder Statesman
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Post by Tony K on May 13, 2007 13:22:11 GMT
Actually it are degrees Celcius (°C) just as it are Kelvin without degree (K). While you may think this is a victory, in fact it will only hinder the UK. Just like they refuse to convert to the Euro. In fact I really wonder why the UK hasn't pulled out of the EEC and became a state of the US... I think this is a very bad decision for the UK in the long term. But it's your funeral. Just for the record, Sunshine, I was actually saying it was NOT a victory. As far as your other remarks are concerned, they do not merit comment and, additionally, are not related to model engineering. Regards, Tony.
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