John Lee
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Post by John Lee on Mar 2, 2007 18:49:52 GMT
- It would be really nice just to have ONE system, therefore we should keep moving towards metric.
- As new items become available, they should be metric and then over a period of time we will have rolled over to it (including model designs). If we do not, we will remain in this transit state.
- That is what the legislation is trying to do.
- If there is a sound engineering reason for something not being metric, then keep it imperial, but I cannot think of a good example.
- I repeat, petitions are just thrown aside and trodden underfoot like used contraceptives. At best they just take the protestor's eye off the ball.
Regards, Bo. Thank you Boadecia, quite, and if anybody bothers to look at the proposed legislation, it is not about banning imperial goods, it is about the promotion of imperial goods. Its probably better to do this before starting a petition against something, for what that is likely to be worth. Just another sop to the masses IMHO anyway. So, to quote an example given, Myfords will be able to sell you an imperial leadscrew, but they will not be able to actively promote it or declare it is better. This has, incidentally, been discussed before on here as I recall. This seems like one of the more sane bits of legislation to me. Only those who put self interest about having to buy new equipment, or that they cannot in their blinkered opinion build a few older designs, ahead of a national interest in competing in a modern world could possibly disagree. I know the USA remains sort of Imperial. But that is not the future, the Chinese are...errr guess ..metricated. As is the Indian subcontinent, and in fact the vast majority of the world. Luddites exist amongst the engineering, and model engineering, community it seems. Regards, John
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Post by gilesengineer on Mar 2, 2007 19:16:42 GMT
Aren't people missing the point completely? I shouldn't think anyone is really saying that 'Metric is a bad thing' or Imperial is 'Wicked'...... Natural selection will take care of that issue if nothing else. Surely the problem is making the use of one system of measurment that is still in every-day use illegal.... a measure that seems a little over-the-top to me! What happened to tolerance? (Anyway, the Governments record of listening to the Electorate is frankly deplorable)
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S.D.L.
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Post by S.D.L. on Mar 2, 2007 19:27:51 GMT
.... and makes practically nothing in it. Their basic bolt comes in UNC/UNF - including them weird number sizes in the sub-1/4" range.
I believe that quite a bit of there car manufacturing is metrric already and it will all go that way if they intend to compete with Toyota and there world wide manufacuring of components.
Steve Larner
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Post by havoc on Mar 3, 2007 13:41:32 GMT
Actually, all soda bottles are metric, most of the electronics industry is using metric (almost all datasheets are in mm) and the space industry is also changing over. In fact, the only industry that keeps using imperial in large quantities is the building/wood industry.
I guess that in 30 years Myford will simply give offer you a metric leadscrew replacement with a fitting graduated collar.
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simonwass
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Cecil Pagets 2-6-2 of 1908. Engine number 2299. Would make a fascinating model....
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Post by simonwass on Mar 3, 2007 16:00:28 GMT
Does anyone know where to find info on the actual facts concerning this? It would be interesting to read exactly what is going to happen.
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John Lee
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Post by John Lee on Mar 3, 2007 18:27:46 GMT
Does anyone know where to find info on the actual facts concerning this? It would be interesting to read exactly what is going to happen. Just go to the government website.. which many seem to ignore and read before starting useless petitions.... read up.... Regards, John
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Myford Matt
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There are two ways to run a railway, the Great Western way, and the wrong way.
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Post by Myford Matt on Mar 3, 2007 19:14:26 GMT
JL - I'm going to ask the DTI what is going to happen. I 'll let you know what they say.
MM
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Myford Matt
Statesman
There are two ways to run a railway, the Great Western way, and the wrong way.
Posts: 621
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Post by Myford Matt on Mar 3, 2007 21:44:50 GMT
I'm proposing to send the following to the relevant pen pusher in the DTI - would welcome suggestions/amendments:
Dear xxxxx
I am a keen model engineering, member of a club and a popular internet chat room.
Model engineers make many things, but probably the post popular theme is steam locomotives. These are accurate, scale versions of the originals made with authentic materials and powered by coal - just like the original. Construction requires considerable skill with machine tools and can take years, even decades to finish.
It is the nature of the hobby that many of the models were designed in the pre-metric era and their continued construction, maintenance and repair is likewise best done in imperial measurements. There is considerable debate within the model engineering world about the merits or otherwise of metrication. Many of us have strongly held views, particularly about the role of government, but my impression is that they are not very often based on fact, but rather personal prejudice - on both sides. Therefore, I am writing to try and get some kind of official line on four key areas. If possible, I would appreciate your answers to include reference to current and future legislation, whether UK or EU in origin.
1. Materials Is/will it still be possible for manufacturers to make and sell materials with imperial dimensions. For example 1" rod of brass or 1/8" steel plate. If not, are they allowed to make exact metric equivalents, for example 25.4mm rod, or do they have to make 25mm rod as a 'near equivalent'. Perhaps they will be allowed to make 1" rod, but have to sell it by the metre. Please note that I am NOT asking what firms may or may not decide is in their best interests, that is up to them, but what they are/will be allowed to do under current/planned legislation.
2. Published material I have been told that it may no longer be permissible to sell books or designs with imperial measurements. For example, the engineering plans of a steam locomotive laid out in inches. Is that true? Is their any distinction between reprinting old plans, say from the fifties, or new designs first published in a contemporary magazine, now or in the future?
3. Measuring equipment Several successful British firms (for example Moore and Wright in Sheffield) still make and sell measuring equipment in imperial units - rulers, micrometers and verniers. Aside from their own commercial interests, is there any upcoming legislation that will make this illegal or force them to change their production of this kind of equipment.
4. Tools It is the nature of imperial unit-based designs that they require imperial tools. Drill bits, cutters, taps and dies all need to be imperial to authentically reproduce the design. Is there any legislation that will prohibit the continued sale of, for example, a 1/4" drill bit or tools for making imperial screw threads?
I have tried to ask these questions in a neutral way. I am not looking for a debate on the pros on cons of either system, or advice on how to convert to the metric system. I simply want to know what the law says now, and how planned and upcoming legislation will affect my hobby.
Kind regards
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waggy
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Post by waggy on Mar 3, 2007 21:53:50 GMT
I've read through most of the posts on this thread and my simple mind is having a boggle! The use of a calculator (which we all have on this site, look under "programs, accesories" from the start button) and 25.4 is such an easy method of conversion! Perhaps I miss the point of the thread but I agree with "gilesengineer", we all work to and with, tolerance! Waggy.
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simonwass
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Cecil Pagets 2-6-2 of 1908. Engine number 2299. Would make a fascinating model....
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Post by simonwass on Mar 3, 2007 23:08:18 GMT
The use of a calculator (which we all have on this site, look under "programs, accesories" from the start button) and 25.4 is such an easy method of conversion! Do you have a 6.35mm drill? What about a 9.525 x 0.635t 2nd tap? Calculators are fine if they are needed, if this legislation is potentially as bad as currently feared (lack of knowledge makes one complacent) then our hobby is going to go through a very painfull (EXPENSIVE) change, I dont want to wait until 01/01/2010 to find out just how bad it could be, without this thread I had my head in the sand. I might email my MP to ask for details (good post Matt) and to raise it at question time or whenever local MP's get to have a say.
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Post by havoc on Mar 3, 2007 23:16:25 GMT
No, but I do have 6.3 and 6.4. So the question is, if I drill a hole with one of those, will you be able to tell me which one I used? Or did I use a 1/4" one?
Seriously, If your design needs the difference between 6.35 and 6.3, then you need a better design.
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Post by epicyclicgearbox on Mar 4, 2007 1:08:17 GMT
Gentlemen (and ladies (lets be politically correct for startoffs)
This is my first post here, and a subject that I feel strongly about. As I am currently attempting to construct a version of LBSCs Heilan' Lassie (and have the majority of the 1946 / 1947 copies of ME to help with it, and the workshop is located in Colchester, for the benefit of the originator of this thread), I can say that I would be very unhappy if I was only permitted to obtain metric cutters, mills etc. I wish to stick to LBSC's (the master as far as I am concerned) original designs, and would be most displeased if I have to try to obtain 0.635mm (No 72) drills for the injector cones (for example). It is fine to categorise all measurements in the metric systems, but there is , at the smaller sizes, no realsitic interval, in commercial production, between steps for the benefit of those who wish to produce things on a smaller scale. In mention of which, I was born in 1977 and educated in metric, but bought up by my father in inches. My engineering activities are mainly carried out in inches as I can visualise them. In the workshop, the lathe , H-Mill and gear hobber are in inches, yet the V-Mill, Shaper and engraver are in mm; so conversion happens on a daily basis, and by the aid of a digital vernier. What is not acceptable, however, is the possibility of anything imperial being banned. I still will have a requirement for 1/4" (6.35mm) drills into the future, but commercially available items would not in that size. I want 1/8" x 1/4" steel rod, but could also accomodate 3.18 x 6.35mm. I bet however, that when a certain law is passed, I will only be able to obtain 3.0x6.3mm rod, if that, which will b**ls up what has currently been made.
I will continue to work to inches as it exercises the mind, apart from other advantages, so there!
Yours Faithfully
Epicyclicgearbox
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John Lee
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Post by John Lee on Mar 4, 2007 6:25:29 GMT
JL - I'm going to ask the DTI what is going to happen. I 'll let you know what they say. MM Certainly Matt, I would think it most likely they will point you to the information about this already published on their website, but we will see. In essence, by 2009 almost all non metric units can't be used when used in quantity. For instance things cannot be sold as 50p per inch. Exceptions to this include road traffic signs, the good old British pint of beer, acres, nautical miles, height in aviation usage etc etc. However a 6 foot by 6 foot fence panel can be described and sold as such, as can a 1/4 inch drill, and as can an imperial leadscrew. Are people likely to stop manufacturing in imperial? Yes, but thats a completely different issue, they largely already have anyway. If there is not the demand then this is to be expected. But it's misdirected effort that thinks a petition to government will change a thing, either over this (or in any case, because they will ignore it) or more important matters. For those that are old enough, do you remember the fuss and clamour surrounding currency decimalisation, that the loss of 12 pennies to a shilling would mean life as we know it was finished? That seems to have gone ok It was a condition of entry to the EEC (now the EU) that the UK would do this decades ago incidentally (convert to metric standards that is). The diehards and canutes should really be grateful that they have had so long to change over, time it seems they have wasted. Comment from our friends in Australia, Canada, New Zealand etc would be welcome; they have already done this years ago. No doubt it was a bit of a cockup, everything directed by governments usually is, but did the world come to an end?? Regards, John
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Post by Shawki Shlemon on Mar 4, 2007 9:28:40 GMT
Yes in Australia we are metric but one can still buy imperial products such as drill bits and other tools and even fasteners . We must not forget that the US has not changed and it has a lot of influence on our economies . I think it will take some time longer than our life span before the whole world will be metric.
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Post by havoc on Mar 4, 2007 10:31:07 GMT
I doubt it will take very long. The new economic powers are all metric.
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Post by Tel on Mar 4, 2007 10:44:38 GMT
Dunno Havoc - if I recall correctly this argument was raging in M.E. in the early 80's, so already a quarter century has slipped past.
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Post by norman2 on Mar 4, 2007 11:09:20 GMT
May I introduce myself – I am “the old fart” who effectively started this hare running (politeness and common courtesy does not seem to be the strong suit of some contributors).
I am indebted to Donald G for his efforts to support me and promote my petition, but the wording of the title of his post is, perhaps a little unfortunate and misleading. Anyone who takes the trouble to actually read the petition should realise that it is not “against” metrication at all. The words “metric” and “metrication” do not even feature in the petition! For the record and the benefit of those who cannot be bothered to read it before commenting, the petition reads as follows:- The Prime Minister is requested to secure permanent derogation from those aspects of European Union directive 80/181 which will, at the end of 2009, make the use of imperial units of measure illegal.
I spent a large part of my professional career before retirement as Chief Engineer of part of a large multinational organisation. We worked quite happily in both metric and imperial systems for decades before Brussels started to interfere with our lives. After retirement I spent seven years running my own design and consultancy business designing special purpose lifting equipment. This work was carried out almost exclusively to metric standards.
I regard the metric system as easier to use and more logical than imperial, particularly from an engineering point of view, and would be the last person to advocate abandoning it. (A pointless exercise anyway!). That is not what my petition is about. What it IS about is freedom of choice. We are supposed to be living in a free society. Why should a shopkeeper face criminal proceedings because he wishes to display the price of vegetables for sale in cost per pound as well as cost per Kilo? Don’t tell me it won’t happen – it already has! The imposition of such legislation is undemocratic, to say the least.
If anyone is in any doubt about industries views on the situation try reading the report on the meeting held between representatives of a wide range of industries and the DTI in November 2006.
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lancelot
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Post by lancelot on Mar 4, 2007 11:42:49 GMT
Hello Norman2, could you provide a ''Link'' to the D.T.I. debate Nov.2006,
All the best, John.
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Post by havoc on Mar 4, 2007 12:28:26 GMT
Yes, but this was before "globalisation" took off large scale. Now foremost China is the driving power in manufacturing.
Well, with all respect, I think you are a bit misguided in what freedom of choice is about. There is also something like the law and the respect for it. Now the UK has decided to go metric (let's skip the point why and if this was a sound decision). Now if that is what should happen, then that should happen. And using a single consistent system is a rational choice.
If the younger generation learns metric, then why should they have to buy their groceries in pounds? So it makes sense that all shopkeepers use the same units. The same units that are tought in schools, used in all legal transactions etc. And if the law requires them to do so, then there should be some form of incentive to actually make them do that. If the only thing that will make those shopkeepers obey the law are fines and proceedings, then that is the way to go.
If you can accept that the code of law is enforced by fines and proceedings, then why not a law defining units and their use? The longer the conversion takes, the harder it is. Hit hard and make the change. It will pay in the long run.
I really wonder what will happen in the UK when the Euro is introduced? Will you also accept that people continue to use the old money just because they want?
And freedom of choice? I would like the freedom to pay taxes, but I would not like the freedom to hit anyone in the face because I want. If a society wants to function, then you cannot have all freedoms. What would you do if a carmaker decides to use a speedometer in furlongs per forthnight when every speedcam is counting in km/h? After all if you want that freedom, so has that manufacturer his freedom.
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Post by 3405jimmy on Mar 4, 2007 15:00:22 GMT
Just for the record I am against everything unless it’s what I want. Now where do I sign up?
Jim The assembler
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