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Post by steamcoal on Jul 26, 2014 9:08:21 GMT
Can I ask the knowledgable members of this forum the particular techniques that have been found to be succesfully in the use of Anthracite Coal in small locomotives.
I have sourced Anthracite from Signal fuels and have it in the market place in New Zealand not as a main commercial revenue source but as a service to allow locomotive owners to run their engine without the fouling of tubes and smoking there passengers out.
I do not want to know if the Signal fuel, or others fuel is better than one supplier or another but my customers have begun to run with Anthracite and have asked for recommendations. I have used the fuel myself, both in UK built engines with standard bar grates and have no problems. I know it has different characteristics to soft "house coal" and Char products but this Welsh coal has been in model use for a very long time and obviously must be successful.
One loco owner has a Simplex and asked about grate design.He is trying a rosebud grate but I mentioned the blast nozzle improvement my also be required. Depth of fire may also be an issue and a little and often stoking could be an advantage.
I realise there are multipule combinations of engines but some general experience would be appreciated.
Just one last question, how many modellers use Welsh Dry Steam coal, the soft coal, as opposed to anthracite.
Thanks.
Hayden
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
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Post by jma1009 on Jul 26, 2014 9:29:00 GMT
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Post by steamcoal on Jul 26, 2014 10:53:50 GMT
Julian.
It seems that the grates are thought to be the issue and this is where the apprehension seems to lie at present.
Is there any specific alterations or dimensions that are generally the accepted norm for grates? I would expect that the designs as built for the last 80 years would have delt with any defencies and any exception noted. Experimentation is warranted as required but I am at a loss to think what other factors may be contributing to this doubt on the suitability of anthracite as a locomotive fuel.
Hayden
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
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Post by jma1009 on Jul 26, 2014 12:52:21 GMT
hi hayden,
apart from the fact that anthracite smoke gives me a very bad chest (i am not alone in this!) it is eminently suitable for miniature locomotives albeit a slightly sharper blast is required. no alteration to the grate or ashpan will be required from the standard LBSC dimensions, though i personally prefer thinner firebars and and a slightly larger air space on my grates using what i was always told was the SMEE 'standard'.
as stated in the above link, anthracite, because of it's uniform size, should result in much better combustion when compared to what one often sees in miniature loco tenders when large lumps of proper welsh steam coal are broken up at the club.
the first club that i joined and was a member of for some 20 years only ever used anthracite beans during those years, apart from the rare occasion when we managed to get hold of a few bags of proper welsh steam coal from the local traction engine club.
cheers, julian
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Post by digger on Jul 26, 2014 21:39:04 GMT
Welsh steam coal is very high in volatiles, it burns very well and produces a fair amount of heat, the problem I found when using it, the fire appeared very bright, but if touched it would collapse to virtually nothing, it used to 'arch over' badly, but once you are aware of this it was ok. Anthracite beans suit my locomotive well, I too use thin firebars, anthracite emmits lots of heat, with virtually no ash.
Digger
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2014 22:36:53 GMT
Welsh steam coal is very high in volatiles, it burns very well and produces a fair amount of heat, the problem I found when using it, the fire appeared very bright, but if touched it would collapse to virtually nothing, it used to 'arch over' badly, but once you are aware of this it was ok. Anthracite beans suit my locomotive well, I too use thin firebars, anthracite emmits lots of heat, with virtually no ash. Digger -------------- it has this reputation in full size as well !!---------------
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jma1009
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Post by jma1009 on Jul 26, 2014 23:20:52 GMT
hi digger, what you have to do is tap the burning coal down with the base of the shovel! cheers, julian
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Post by digger on Jul 26, 2014 23:26:25 GMT
hi digger, what you have to do is tap the burning coal down with the base of the shovel! cheers, julian Yes I soon learnt that, I was ok with it after the first suprise, it was a GWR Manor class locomotive, after the technique was mastered it used to make steam like there was no tomorrow! Digger
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Post by peterseager on Jul 27, 2014 7:01:06 GMT
Our club was invited to clear out the celler of somebody who was giving up using anthracite on a domestic boiler. For a considerable while it was the fuel generally available for use and everybody was happy. There were a couple of points that I remember, one, as somebody above commented, the smell if you got a wiff of it, and two, for school fetes on the portable track we prefered to burn Welsh Steam Coal because it did not clinker like the anthracite did in this circumstance - heavy use over a long period.
Even today, anthracite is easily availalbe from coal merchants in rural Essex because of its use in automatic boilers and so I aquired some at one time. To use it up I mixed it with Welsh steam coal 75% W / 25% A, as suggested by Martin Evans in one of his books. It worked well. This batch of anthracite did not smell.
Nowadays we stock up on Welsh steam Coal from Signal Fuels when we vist the Midlands Exhibition.
Peter
Edit: Rereading above, nobody commented on the smell of anthracite but Julian said anthracite smoke gave him a bad chest which I took to be the same thing and I am not suprised given the acrid smell we experienced from burning anthracite.
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Post by ejparrott on Jul 27, 2014 8:26:58 GMT
We've been running signal fuels recently but I can't say I've ever noticed it producing smelly smoke. The only thing I've ever noticed it producing is bucket loads of stone and clinker and not much heat. We won't be buying from them again. I had some brilliant coal from Phil last week, that was smoky, but boy did the Scot steam on it, and it only started clinkering when I ran out and switched to signal fuels coal. The grate on that has 8 6mm stainless bars, spaced with M6 nuts which are about 5mm thick I think, total width 3.5" so that's about 50/50 air gap/bar.
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Post by steamcoal on Jul 27, 2014 10:00:36 GMT
Toady we steamed the Railmotor with both Anthracite and Welsh Dry Steam as a test.
The loco was steamed up from cold on charcoal and anthracite. The steam-up fire lighting to safeties blowing was 7.5 minutes as was my usual experience.
I completed 15 laps of the 250 m track with good performance on anthracite beans. Our track has quite high gradients raising 680mm ( 27 inches) over a length of 140 metres with a continious climb out from our station for 75 metres with equal downhill gradients but also with tight radius curves ( 13 metres ). It is required that the regulator needs to be opened and closed to limit speeds. I also only carry a single driver trolley with fixed single bogies. It is a Chesterfield design trolley and is tight on the curves owning to no swivelling bogies and adds quite a load to the draw bar pull.
The anthracite exhibited the usual firing and small quantities were added throughout the lap, two shovels for most laps. A small amount of blower was in use, but just a crack.
The tender coal was then cleared out and we introduced Welsh Dry Steam Coal. The coal was damp which did not help but it ignited quickly and took on its stable burn with plenty of flame. The lump pieces were and 3/4 to 1inch size, just small enough to pass into the firebox. Once the Welsh Dry had ignited the firebox was full of flame and the safeties blew off well shortly after. We managed about 5 laps before the pressure diminished, not because the coal was depleted but the lumps appeared to burn at a steady rate and even more blower did not excite the fire bed in the same way as anthracite. The large lumps also allowed more voids between and so a lumpy fire and not so even across the grate.Air would have been drawn in but not to aid combustion. Once it was raked up a little the fire evened out and more flame was evident and the pressure raised quickly. I broke the pieces up to more the size of beans and I consider this gave a better fire and more evenly spread across the grate. The Railmotor grate is only 95mm x 75mm anyway so it very small and the fire depth is limited.
My personal opinion is that Welsh Dry gave about 80% the performance of the Anthracite. It is the first time I have ever use it but certainly see the difference. It is suited to a larger firebox but I would consider to blend 75% anthracite with 25% Welsh Dry. Anthracite gives more instant heat but the Welsh Dry has a sustained burn which could give a more even fire bed. Anthracite certainly has the heat output but the combustion is more variable, especially in a small loco like the Railmotor.
Many of you will know these results from prior experience but I consider it a worthwhile trial and see the virtues of both fuels.
I certainly learn something new today.
Hayden
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 11:24:25 GMT
Yes, Welsh Steam has a distinct aroma that is unforgettable...........Like many other commercial ventures we tried coal from various sources in order to keep costs etc. to a minimum..........One batch ( from Poland, I think) you could actually see some light Brown "scrapings" within --- probably an open cast seam ---- and it burnt "Cold" with fluid clinker visible and ash like it was going out of fashion !!.........Churchward's narrow boxes seemed to relish the Welsh whereas the full-width grates handle the poorer types much better..............It will be a while just yet but I'm wondering just what to burn in The Bear's box ??------- Anyone on here involved with the 5" Bear at Scunthorpe MES ??
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Midland
Elder Statesman
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Post by Midland on Jul 27, 2014 20:57:32 GMT
Hi All My experience with anthacite beans is lot of blower, looking for something more user friendly like that welsh stuff!! Cheerts David
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Post by steamcoal on Jul 27, 2014 23:57:23 GMT
One of our local members has just returned from IMLEC 2014 ( James Woods is his name) he ran his Mona on Signal Fuels Anthracite and said it all went well.
I agree more blower is needed but modification of nozzle aperture is also important in some circumstance's.
I am not sure if 100% Welsh is entirely the answer either, especially for smaller engines but Britannia's and the like it could be fine. I will try a mix but generally favouring Anthracite. It certainly is worth a try.
Does anyone know of an article published a few year back in the ME regarding fuels? Would be interested to read it.
Hayden
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
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Post by jma1009 on Jul 28, 2014 23:08:41 GMT
my personal preference is always to use proper welsh steam coal. however for most people there is no longer a consistent supply of the right type of welsh steam coal for the reasons i explained in the ME forum link above.
i was fortunate in that for a period of 9 years i was able to acquire free, by various means, enough proper welsh steam coal to fill up one of my sheds. in addition i still have a bag of oakdale cobbles, and even better 2 bags of 'phurnod' (a brand that came from the Lady Windsor Colliery, and which 2 bags date back to pre-1962!). i take my own supply when i run my locos, all graded and broken up to the correct size for whatever loco im running. i can run my locos from 10am to 5pm without any clinker or fire problems. some people think that the performance of my own locos is due to some wizardry i perform in the workshop, but in truth half of the story is that im burning much better coal than everyone else!!
cheers, julian
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Post by ejparrott on Jul 29, 2014 8:25:27 GMT
Ironically, I hardly ever get clinker in the Hunslet, whatever coal I'm burning!
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Post by houstonceng on Jul 29, 2014 12:23:02 GMT
Anthracite in the club loco tends to need a little more blower as described above. It tends to " explode" on the fire surface into very small grains and the higher blower pulls these into the smokebox.
Very little ash or clinker after 3 hours on an up and down 180feet track at a fete, but plenty of clinker at 2 hours on our quarter mile circuit track with full loads on gradients up to 1:100.
The main advantage is it's readily available and doesn't have the dust that was generated breaking large coals into beans suitable for 5" locks.
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jma1009
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Post by jma1009 on Jul 30, 2014 14:25:36 GMT
hi andy, that is a very interesting observation re the anthracite 'exploding' and the smokebox filling up with very small unburnt particles, and confirms my own observation when trying out/testing some of the 3/4 ton of anthracite i acquired last autumn. i dont ever remember this problem with anthracite years ago. cheers, julian
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Post by steamcoal on Aug 2, 2014 23:10:26 GMT
Andy.
I also find your observation interesting re the fragmenting or the coal.
My little engine does a fair chuff up gradients and I suspect that it does draw fragments through the tubes and deposits into the smokebox.
Now that you mention it I might do a little experiment the next steaming and actually weigh the coal used and weigh the contents of the smokebox clean out. When excessive blower is used I have heard a crackling noise and this could be the anthracite fragmenting under intense heating with chips being drawn through into the smokebox and up the chimney.
I tend to do 5-6 laps(1000-1250m) of our track in one journey so it is under normal load and not just stationary with the blower on. Maybe there is a difference in the smokebox deposit size depending on the type of running.
I might also try to re-burn some smokebox deposit to see if the build-up is fully burnt coal or fragments of unburnt material.
Something for me to think about.
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smallbrother
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Errors aplenty, progress slow, but progress nonetheless!
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Post by smallbrother on Aug 3, 2014 9:23:59 GMT
When I was mining the South Wales area the coal was unbeatable worldwide on any scientific test. I can't see it will have changed whether in someone's cellar or still in the ground.
The washing/handling processes will vary and some muck may get into the product from time to time.
Coal seams vary in the ground too, so at times the product is pure, but if a fault is nearby then muck may be mixed in.
If the odd bit looks dull chuck it away. If most of the bag is suspect, take it back to the supplier.
I am just coming to the end of a bag from Signal Fuels and it has been excellent. My local supplier has always been top notch too, whether for my locos or previously for the Rayburn cooker/heater.
The notion of "it isn't as good as the old days" is totally illogical and incorrect.
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