Firing locos on Anthracite coal.

[jma1009]

hi peter!

i have always taken a keen interest in the quality of coal burnt in our miniature locos.

what andy describes i can confirm myself re a batch of anthracite i tried earlier this year and last october, and can confirm it isnt something i recall as a problem with anthracite for a period of 20 odd years from 1983 onwards. the bursting of anthracite into small particles is not supposed to be a characteristic of anthracite but i can guarantee it happens with the 3/4 ton of it ive got!

it is also relevant that Signal Fuels have changed what they currently offer to clubs from welsh steam coal to anthracite.

(personally i think this dates from Tower closing, and in any event i would have described Signal Fuels' previous supply as identical to 'soft anthracite' that Tower mined in one or more of their seams. i had a very long chat with the agent at Tower about all this a few years ago. he confirmed that they were mining some seams of anthracite plus other seams of 'soft anthracite' at the time. they also had access to proper steam coal seams but these seams werent mined, due i think he said to the cost of improving the roadways underground and some geological faults and water problems).

i agree that coal doesnt change, but as you well know there is a wide difference in quality and type of coal in the seams in the south wales coalfield.

in any event Hayden cant send his stuff back as he is in New Zealand!

Laurie Lawrence used to comment in detail in his ME reports on coal used in the annual IMLEC event. it was not uncommon even in the 1980's for duff/unsuitable stuff to be supplied by the merchants as 'welsh steam coal'.

i always thought the 'coal merchant' system used by the NCB rather strange as you had to rely on what the merchant provided, and it was quite difficult to circumvent this set up and ensure a consistent supply from one particular favoured colliery. (i know that John Bate on the Talyllyn Railway managed to do just this after they were let down a few times with unsuitable coal).

the national traction engine club always managed to get specific stuff from a specific colliery and their bags were marked with the colliery the coal came from - many forum members will no doubt remember this. around 1989/90 they had 'oakdale cobbles' (absolutely excellent stuff) then oakdale closed and next year it was marked 'penallta' (very close to me and not far from oakdale either and wasnt anything like as good although still 'welsh steam coal'. when all the welsh steam coal pits closed not long after there was then that huge load of polish coal that arrived in hull or somewhere - which again many forum members will remember firing (ive still got some of that in my shed too!)

when you run a loco all day hauling fare paying poassengers as opposed to just a few hours, and the club relies on the revenue you are earning for them, these things became of very great importance.

cheers,
julian

[steamcoal]

Julian.

By Welsh Steam Coal...do you mean Welsh Dry Steam Coal. the softer rounded lumps that can be broken up easily? 

Do you call it Welsh Anthracite Coal??

I would have though that Signal would have offered either Welsh Dry or Anthracite to the clubs. They (clubs)  would order either one or the other as they are not the same. Am I mistaken? They certainly shown different characteristics but in times past was only Welsh Dry Steam Coal used in loco? 

The products that I have are hard Black Anthracite and Welsh Dry Steam Coal. The Welsh Dry is marked as from Fos-y-fran which is the mine reported in various media and Old Glory some time ago. I do not know where the anthracite comes from. 

I would consider that it is highly likely that the coal quality would vary within a narrow defined margin as its origins have been strongly influenced by the original plant material and the geological processes imposed upon it. Over a short distance material could have been submerged where as close by it may have remained terrestrial. Suppose it is like growing say carrots.. someplaces they taste better than others in the same plot.

One other factor you might like to comment on is the degredation of the output of heat of coal over time due to natural de-gassing and storage. Have you ever noticed this as a major factor in performance of engines? 

Hayden

[jma1009]

hi hayden,

'smokeless' and 'dry' are 2 types of steam coal equally suitable for steam locomotives. they are marked as areas on the map below. the best stuff i have comes from the 'smokeless' area, so ive never quite understood what 'dry' means. some steam coal goes liquid or 'cakes' before it burns and perhaps this is what 'dry' steam coal doesnt do!

welsh steam coal is light friable and should be easily broken up into smaller pieces.

there are lots of different types of welsh coal that all have specific uses eg coking, house coal, steam coal, anthracite.

'soft anthracite' (or semi-anthracitic) is the stuff that Tower Colliery mined being able to be broken up like steam coal and not as hard as anthracite and having burning characteristics half way between the two. until Tower closed in 2008, if you ordered anthracite you could get the hard stuff or the soft stuff depending where in south wales it came from! it was all sold as 'anthracite' yet there was a marked difference in the 2 above types.

note there is quite a difference in the 2 maps below - the first map doesnt distinguish between 'dry' and 'smokeless' steam coal

many have found that the Ffos-y-fran opencast stuff currently mined near Merthyr is of variable quality depending on what seam is uncovered at any one time.

apparently they have a washing plant but i dont know of what type. pete (smallbrother) will know more about this than me. some washing plants actually improved the coal depending on the floatation and 'frothing' method used. again pete will know more about this than me.

i am sorry if this sounds very confusing!

welsh steam coal, being friable, can be affected by frost if you want it to stay as large lumps. this doesnt concern us on our miniature locos. as stated previously most of my own welsh steam coal is of some vintage since mined and i can assure you it hasnt deteriorated in the last 50 years!

where i live in the south wales valleys all my local collieries (there is a seam over 1,000ft under my house) was house coal grade not steam coal at all. one of the biggest collieries in south wales which had the largest output was at Bargoed and so far as i am aware mined no steam coal at all. i am on the eastern edge of the coal field. pete lives on the top edge of the coalfield. the western side of the coalfield produces only anthracite, and no anthracite is found in the central or eastern part of the coalfield.

cheers,
julian

[uuu]

Wikipedia is a "mine" of information!

Wikipedia on Coal

Wilf

[smallbrother]

The reality is that from Merthyr to the most extreme western part of the coalfield, the coal from any decent seam will burn very well in our locos. I have said before that good seams can lie in between rubbish ones and vice versa. Seams can consist of several layers or leaves as they are known, and these can vary too.

Opencast mining produces a better product than underground mechanised mining. I have never seen the old hand methods (pre WW2) but these must have been potentially very good indeed for quality purposes. Seams mined by hand in exactly the same location are being reworked by opencast methods today. It will be excellent stuff today as it was 80 years ago.

I have been burning anthracite coal for various purposes since 1981 and it is as good now as ever, in my view.

If I was importing the stuff I would set out some basic quality parameters and send samples off for testing.

I really wouldn't take too much notice of the names anthracite, steam coal, semi-anthracite etc. Our marketing people would change the name to suit what the market was seeking. The important thing is the analysis of things such as ash content, sulphur, calorific value. If the first 2 are low and the CV high you are probably on to a winner!

Coal is another variable in what makes this hobby so interesting!

Pete.

[Deleted]

Aug 3, 2014 12:59:42 GMT uuu said:

Wikipedia is a "mine" of information!

Wikipedia on Coal

Wilf

Oh u---u---u "naughty" Wilf !!

[Tony K]

Yes Wilf is naughty - I thought it was all nuts!

Aug 3, 2014 15:22:33 GMT smallbrother said:

Coal is another variable in what makes this hobby so interesting! Pete.

....and often something to blame when things are not going quite right I find.

Interesting stuff above though. I could not quite work out what mining is left now.

I think Julian should lock up his little shed or he might have visitors one night! Or, he could share his stock amongst us all?

[smallbrother]

....and often something to blame when things are not going quite right I find.

Yes Tony, having been involved for some time in mining I do not understand how significant quantities of crap find their way into the bags we buy. Not saying it is impossible, but when you see how the process works then someone would really have to sabotage the product. The big customers are very quick to test what they receive and whether it is large or small, the coal all goes through the same process. 

Apart from this forum I have never heard of "exploding" anthracite - I think someone has shovelled something else onto the fire. Also, time after time, my smokeboxes contain only ash and occasionally very small particles of coal. Clinker is very rare and would represent a few % of the grate area - it would not really be noticeable for steam raising purposes.

Any pieces of coal that are dull or look different from the majority I chuck away.

I shall be popping down to my supplier in Glynneath in the next day or so as my Signal Fuels bag is nearly empty, apart from the duff (sand size pieces) which I will bin. Their coal comes from the nearby opencast mine - I did some pre-planning on this mine many years ago and the coal is very good anthracite.

Pete.

[ejparrott]

Is there a supplier in Glynneath? I lived there for many many years, mother still does!

[smallbrother]

Aug 4, 2014 10:38:46 GMT ejparrott said:

Is there a supplier in Glynneath? I lived there for many many years, mother still does!

R O Parks - no connection. Grab some next time you are down!

[ejparrott]

Is he still going? Blimey...he was all but gone when I left 10 years ago!

[uuu]

Talking of nuts, we used to favour Dr Bronowski's nuts at home when I was young.

Wilf

[Deleted]

Aug 4, 2014 18:22:54 GMT uuu said:

Talking of nuts, we used to favour Dr Bronowski's nuts at home when I was young.

Wilf

------------------ I know there's a joke in there but do try to resist it !!

[steamcoal]

Tonytrans.

With regard to Julians stash I can just imagine a purist model engineers trapsing out in the dead of night, pick and shovel over the shoulder, empty sack in the other to a secret location to mine there prized coal supply.

I guess it is akin to a secret fishing spot or an undersea reef where the best fish are found. Maybe there is a non descript note marked with an "X" in the bottom of a greasy tool box just awaiting to be discovered. A mysterieous thing this coal it seems.

[Deleted]

--------- shouldn't that be}--- "seams" ?

[smallbrother]

There used to be several thriving night time "unofficial" operations in this area.

It was almost deemed a "right" for the locals to go nicking coal. It was a bit OTT though when 20 ton lorries would turn up!

Bizarre but there were guys carrying several hundredweight for 2 - 3 miles on pushbikes all night - they could have had an easier life with a proper job at the mine.

[steamcoal]

Bet they got hauled over the coals when they got caught!

[Tony K]

Were the lorries for the longer distance deliveries e.g. to Newcastle!

Presume you know this because of the carbon footprints left behind.

I suppose they took their pick?

[smallbrother]

The thieving failed to ignite any flames with the local coppers.

[Deleted]

I say old bean, perhaps the Police whistle pea got stuck ??.. Maybe a swig of Coke would cure it ??------