LBSC's Doris versus the Code

[steamcoal]

Just to ponder.

What would the actual cost of a fully stamped commercial made boiler be compared to a home constructed one in Australia?

What is the cost difference in real terms considering material procurement, trips to visit the BI, soldering materials, heating fuels, pickle materials, time to make patterns, time to clean up, time to worry and make notes to a forum.

I know own time is free but really nothing is free and a mucked up boiler will more or less cost you two times or more the original saving.

I am not trying questioning home building of boilers but in this country there is a severe lack of "approved" and "compliant" boiler committee members at many clubs. There are just not the skills available to comply with the code requirements, let alone getting the materials.

How is it in Aussie?

[runner42]

Jan 28, 2015 21:55:46 GMT steamcoal said:

Just to ponder.

What would the actual cost of a fully stamped commercial made boiler be compared to a home constructed one in Australia?

What is the cost difference in real terms considering material procurement, trips to visit the BI, soldering materials, heating fuels, pickle materials, time to make patterns, time to clean up, time to worry and make notes to a forum.

I know own time is free but really nothing is free and a mucked up boiler will more or less cost you two times or more the original saving.

I am not trying questioning home building of boilers but in this country there is a severe lack of "approved" and "compliant" boiler committee members at many clubs. There are just not the skills available to comply with the code requirements, let alone getting the materials.

How is it in Aussie?

I don't know but as always that doesn't stop me from giving my thoughts on the subject. I have not done an exhaustive survey of already made locomotive boilers but there doesn't appear to be a company that furnishes this niche market in Australia. I assume that this is due to the fact that the code doesn't appear to accept precedents that each boiler design and construction is treated as a first of type, meaning that notwithstanding that say the Doris boiler has been produced many times, each time the design has to be produced in drawing form that has to be approved by the club's BI and that at various stages of construction the BI has to verify that the parts produced complies with the code requirements, final assembly and pressure and steam testing the boiler. Certification that it complies is provided by the club's BI but this doesn't necessarily indicate that this is an Australia wide approval. It appears to be very parochial activity.

The only way that I see this being undertaken by a third party organisation is that it undertakes this iterative process with the club's BI on behalf of the customer. But because of the nature of the stop go construction process that the costs would be much higher than if the it had carte blanche approval from AMBSC to produce boilers to the code requirements.

I no doubt will be corrected if I am wrong.

Brian

[Shawki Shlemon]

We did have one person in Australia that was approved to build and certify his boilers , his name was Arther Meirs ( I am not sure if spelling is correct ) , he did produce a lot of boilers .No one else since his operation seized many years ago . There are other individuals who build boilers for customers and they belongs to clubs and are limited to 4 boilers a year but they are NOT authorized to certify these boilers , has to be certified by approved boiler inspectors .

[steam4ian]

Brian.

You may find the process tedious but it is infinitely better than going through the hoops imposed by some government bureaucrat.

It is also cheaper. It is a process to support and facilitate amateur constructors.

As for Doris boilers, how many do you think are currently under construction in Australia at present? How many in the world? Each prospective loco boiler built commercially would be different so there are no economies of mast production and standardised design which make manufacturing viable.

Unfortunately not all of LBSC's boiler designs and methodologies are sound particularly when assessed against modern material availability and techniques.

Regards
Ian

[runner42]

Thanks Shawki, interesting comment. I assume that every builder has to get an independent inspection by a BI, even though the builder may himself be a BI.

Ian I don't consider the process as tedious, on the contrary I consider that it is an assistance to particularly first time builders to have these checks in place.

Brian

[steamcoal]

With regard to established designs from the old school, LBSC, Martin Evans etc, do the AMBSC inspectors review ALL the design criteria from the ground up or is there nothing at all that can be constructed from original design drawings and specifications and passed providing workmanship is up to code?

That is to say does any prospective boiler face the Martin Evans "Simplex" regime and is guilty of being deficient until proven worthy of the AMBSC Code?

How do the AMBSC take commercially constructed CE boilers which one may use? Are they passed on the paperwork or what other inspection?

[Shawki Shlemon]

Brian , you are right , even if one is a boiler inspector and building a boiler , he/she has to go through the same process as everyone else , a boiler inspector can NOT certify his boiler whether he/she built it or not .
Steamcoal , one can build any boiler design provided it meets the code , or make changes to meet the code this can be done on the plan or new sheet , I accept either , you have to check with your boiler inspector ( it is up to the boiler inspector ) .
As for the imported commercial boilers , each is inspected as well as paper work and decided upon by club boiler inspector . there are no special rules or requirements , the code and safety are the main issues . The ones I have seen are of very high standard but each one is judged on its own merits . If one import one , must take the risk of not passing .

[steamcoal]

Shawki.

So you are saying that for an Australian, or New Zealand model engineer that that AMBSC code leads the world in model engineering boiler design criteria and that the CE ( EU and British) and American coded and stamped commercial boilers are deficient in there application of historical knowledge in boiler making for miniature models for the last 100 years plus?

I wonder how the UK boiler makers view this considering the very stringent CE regulatory rules that Brussels have imposed on all fascist of model engineering. I have read the Federation codes and I am sure all matters have been taken care of both theoretically and practically.Sure element can be updated but all are rather through.Did I read someplace that there was an inkling of the AMBSC code being adopted by the UK. Thought I did see the two mentioned in the same sentence?

So effectively the potential rejection by a BI under the AMBSC code of a known design (aka Simplex) and built by a professional commercial boiler manufacturer places doubt on a modellers desire to have a commercial boiler installed in his chosen model. One would have thought that the whole point of choosing a fully compliant commercial CE boiler, stamp and tested to current CE regulation as opposed to a self constructed boiler was to provide a greater assurance that the actual item is the best available if that modeller so desires to go that way. I find that a rather condescending assumption on fellow organisations as to the competence of professional manufacturers anywhere outside the AMBSC jurisdiction.

Of course safety is the primary reason for these codes but can the AMBSC say categorically that they they are 'holier than I" or in this case of a commercial boiler manufacturer of long time standing.

This really limits the loco builder to the choice of only building ones own, be it by themselves or having one built by a fellow enthusiast as the punt on a professional item is a potential gamble as you say.I generally thought professional quality was a good choice but sometimes it seems my thoughts on this fact is misjudged.

I know which way I would prefer to go by choice and I am thankful I sit behind two professional boilered models.

[steam4ian]

Steamcoal

Have you followed discussion in groups here and elsewhere about boiler codes? From what I have seen repeatedly is that the alternatives to the AMBSC codes are ambiguous at best leaving a lot to the whim of the local inspector.

Old designs have proved to be deficient in certain areas and the AMBSC has sought to overcome these deficiencies to aid amateur construction. Notable cases being LBSC's spelter joint between the throat plate and the barrel and the use of girder stays. It has been recorder here how the failure of the throat plate to barrel joint trashed a boiler even before it could be filled. Girder stays are seen as presenting a problem with soldering to the outer wrapper and also restricting circulation over the firebox. I very strongly doubt that the AMBSC deviated from UK practice without a sound experiential basis for doing so.

Commercially built boilers in Australia would be subject to the requirements of State workplace safety requirements for pressure vessels. These State bodies allow amateur boiler construction to the AMBSC codes as a concession not a right; hence more than 4 boilers per annum is considered a commercial operation and no longer covered by AMBSC et al.

As for CE boilers, I cant say. Logic would suggest that with the appropriate paper work these would be passed. If the BI will not pass the boiler the local state authority would. Such CE boiler might even have girder stays, spelter joints or be Tig welded!

One thing that the AMBSC needs to recognise is the availability of low cost boroscope cameras for internal inspections; problems are no longer hidden. My boroscope cost me under $50 from Jaycar and links into my laptop for clear pictures.

Why am I defending the AMBSC Codes? As a professional engineer of 44 years standing I have read and applied many codes from British Standard through to AS to the present IEC BS* (*you know what BS is)presented as AS/NZS.
The AMBSC Codes read like the old BS and AS Codes which were helpful and instructive and written by the products' end users not the manufacturers.

I suggest you get yourself a copy of the copper boiler code even if you never have to build or repair a boiler, you might learn something.

Ian

[steamcoal]

Ian.

I do have a copy of the code to hand but would not contemplate a build myself. I don't consider my skills adequate and I look at it from a standpoint that the difference between a proposed self build failing and the cost of the commercial product which should pass a BI certification process.

I take on board your words and acknowledge that all construction and materials have limitations and dificencies and that modern techniques will (should) improve safety.

Initially my earlier post concerned me with the lack of experienced builders these days and hence the lack of compliant BI's capable of performing certification under the AMBSC rules The loss of this knowledge base in the hobby would seem to me to favour commercial construction and I would have been of the opinion that "commercial" means best but as i say I may be misguided.

It seems that commercial could be the best option but I will cross that bridge when I come to it.

Thanks.

[jma1009]

hi hayden,

whilst completely off topic for brian's thread, i would just like to echo Shawki's very relevant comments earlier in this thread that in effect 'making boilers is easy'. things are a bit different 'down under' and stricter than the UK (and the rest of Europe is apparently even less strict). the pitfalls and problems to avoid are well known, but should not put anyone off, particularly as the cost of a commercially made boiler for most of us is prohibitive and would put an end to making miniature steam locomotives for most of us. every part of building a miniature loco requires different skills and a lot of time, but in the case of a boiler over a relatively short period of time a substantial part of the loco can be made. whenever i tackle i new boiler i sit down with piles of back copies of ME magazines and refresh my memory, and also dig out my construction notes that i compile for each build, as every boiler is different and requires sometimes a different approach.

brian's boiler has been complicated by using an old design that doesnt comply with the 'down under' regs for a homemade boiler, and unfortunately hasnt been updated even to comply with the current UK regs. my first boiler was a Railmotor boiler of which you are familiar with and being of 1968 vintage had no bushes for many assemblies - these i added as a matter of course etc. i was lucky to be shown how to approach/be taught silver soldering properly by fellow very experienced club members. bashing copper is fun, and a world away from valve gears and boring cylinders etc.

brian has gone down a few different paths on his boiler construction to those i would have used, but i am sure he has enjoyed the journey and hasnt got much left to do! and in a short while i am sure he will be able to say proudly that his boiler has passed it's tests!

cheers,
julian

[steamcoal]

Paul.

I do not want to provoke further unecessary discussion on the AMBSC code than needs to be aired but do you know what the proceedure might be if one was to " order " a commercial CE boiler for acceptance under the AMBSC regulations, considering that alterations may be needed to comply. Would it be the case that a CE builder of a AMBSC bound boiler( Aust or NZ) needs to have a signed off set of boiler drawings with corrections as opposed to the standard item for which they would build for a UK customer.

I have talked to Cheddar Boilers in the UK whom built my own Railmotor boiler in the 80's, they still have the records and as I plan to built a Railmotor myself I now doubt that I could just call them and say " build me a Railmotor boiler" like the other one you built on my model with number######.

I also know of a Maxitrack 7 1/4" finished engine imported to New Zealand and obviously it will have a new CE Boiler, most likely Tig welded as well. There should be no question that it would comply otherwise only a fool would order one.

Can there be a 100% gaurantee that a NEW CE boiler will be accepted as I am sure other builders are interested to know the answer if this option arises, and it will.

Hayden

[steam4ian]

Hayden

Contact Les Erwin of the AMBSC. I have found him most helpful with boiler questions.
Most likely he will ask for Cheddar's design drawings. Cheddar will of course need to provide CE certification.

Regards
Ian

[Shawki Shlemon]

Steamcoal , this is what I said

As for the imported commercial boilers , each is inspected as well as paper work and decided upon by club boiler inspector . there are no special rules or requirements , the code and safety are the main issues . The ones I have seen are of very high standard but each one is judged on its own merits . If one import one , must take the risk of not passing .

I did NOT say it will be rejected , it is decided on its merit , NO automatic acceptance is provided in the code . Boilers passed by local state authority are accepted to operate in clubs . To enjoy the hobby one has to accept the rules , if one has a complain it should be addressed to AMBSC .

some people have imported engines from UK and US and the boilers were privately build and certified by their clubs , has been inspected , tested and passed by AMBSC boiler inspectors . Each imported boiler is treated on its merits . We don't accept or reject a boiler before being inspected and if necessary tested .

[runner42]

Hayden,

I see by your avatar that you appear to be a member of a club in NZ and your previous comment that you own and drive two locomotives that are powered by commercially made boilers, therefore I am surprised that you unsure of the requirements for commercially made boilers certification generally in NZ and specifically with your club. I note however that Timaru is not listed in the AMBSC Code part 1 requirements, so I may be wrong in assuming that your club has a boiler inspector or that Timaru is not the club's name you belong to. BUT the BI is the person to contact because he is the person that is going to certify its acceptance for insurance cover by your club. As said to me on more than one occasion is "Speak to your BI".

Brian

[runner42]

Jan 30, 2015 21:38:33 GMT steam4ian said:

Steamcoal


One thing that the AMBSC needs to recognise is the availability of low cost boroscope cameras for internal inspections; problems are no longer hidden. My boroscope cost me under $50 from Jaycar and links into my laptop for clear pictures.

Ian

Ian I have ordered an inspection camera from Jaycar, I hope it is going to assist in checking for wicking through on staying between the wrappers. The probe is 10mm dia so it won't do everything I need but for under $40 it's too good to pass up.

Brian

[steamcoal]

Brian.

Our lead BI has inspected both engines and both have been passed.Both have commercial boilers with original paperwork and manufacturers 2x W.P test, not just yearly pressure test and steam tests from the previous owners MES.

My club is the South Canterbury MES and as far as I am aware we are affiliated to the NZMEA and are included in the current ADR ( Amusement Device Regulations) regulations to meet their NZMEA insurance and operating requirement. The club has been in existence for 80 years and has had a good standard of engineering although we have loss many of the ol guard in recent years. We were listed in the 2012 appendix and should still be included. ZSC is the code for us I think.

I will check this out though to confirm but if required our neighbouring clubs offer to help us out for BI issues.

I may suggest our committee also invests in this borescope. I will look online for one.

[ejparrott]

Guys, could I respectfully request we take discussion of the AMBSC to another thread and try and get back to helping Brian with his boiler in this thread

[steamcoal]

I am pretty well sort with what information I need now. Will tidy the loose ends and get on with the hobby.

Thanks.

[jma1009]

i agree with Ed re Hayden's posts! Hayden's posts raise very relevant matters, but nothing whatsoever to do with brian's boiler build thread!

it's damned cold here in the UK - so hope it is warmer and boiler making weather 'down under'!

cheers,
julian