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Post by simplyloco on Oct 17, 2021 20:56:46 GMT
Hi All After diversions into some uncharted waters, have returned safely to this monsterous project. Getting the chassis to work seems to be within my grasp but now the boiler. Unpacked the flanging tools and they stared at me and I stared at them but will go to bed with Alec Farmer tonight (yes his book) and try to see what one does. First job is to match up all the copper that Reeves supplied to the previous builder with the bits in the drawings! Have been reading about Kipford redesigning the damn thing but as Don Young's drawings have served many people so far, will stick to the simple version! Anyway, Princess of Wales thereapy works for me, she ran beautifully last week!! Cheers David David, I will be home soon. Do not worry, we will have some fun together...
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kipford
Statesman
Building a Don Young 5" Gauge Aspinall Class 27
Posts: 571
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Post by kipford on Oct 18, 2021 8:21:28 GMT
David I have done very few changes to the design, they have are been incorporated to make it easier to make the boiler. Not sure where you are going to get the boiler inspected, but if at Fareham, Steve will recommend you shorten the boiler fire box to move the back head forwards by 1/8 to make sure you do not foul the rear horn blocks. It is an easy mod you just make the inner and outer wrappers 1/8" shorter. He will also recommend additional stays around the point outer wrapper transitions from circular to parallel. Consider changing to crown rod stays instead of girders, it makes the soldering process easier. Again Steve will suggest it, I had already decided to do it subject to their approval. You welcome to pop over and see what I have done if you want. Dave
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Midland
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Post by Midland on Oct 19, 2021 11:50:43 GMT
Hi Dave Yes that will be useful. Will be talking to ST soon I hope, just finished being busy with the Heywood Society. I have the copper precut by Reeves some 30-40 years ago and I am trying to identify which bit does what job. I think I told you that Janie bought all this from an estate sale just after we got married and the poor chap who had bought all the copper, castings etc (including the wheels you had off me!) must have just started the tender when he died. She bought this as I have a cherished one of these in Gauge O!! So now we are at the moment of truth to build the damn thing!!! Chassis should be done soon hence looking at the boiler. Cheers David
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Midland
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,875
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Post by Midland on Oct 22, 2021 14:16:20 GMT
After a long consultation with our boiler inspectors and one who has built an Aspinal boiler before, I have been convinced or even convinced myself that I just do not have the depth of skills to make a boiler such as this one. So emails of to the boiler makers for quotes etc. The most annoying part of this is that I have the complete Reeves boiler kit (£645 worth retail) and have the Glen formers and Phil's Lanky formers so it was in my grasp but and a big but I could easily get going and cock it up and some things need some practice and I don't have enough years for that. Just like to get the thing working and retire gracefully. So depressed of Southampton will take his wife out for dinner tonight so I can see which ring I pawn to pay for the boiler!!! Cheers David
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2021 14:41:57 GMT
After a long consultation with our boiler inspectors and one who has built an Aspinal boiler before, I have been convinced or even convinced myself that I just do not have the depth of skills to make a boiler such as this one. So emails of to the boiler makers for quotes etc. The most annoying part of this is that I have the complete Reeves boiler kit (£645 worth retail) and have the Glen formers and Phil's Lanky formers so it was in my grasp but and a big but I could easily get going and cock it up and some things need some practice and I don't have enough years for that. Just like to get the thing working and retire gracefully. So depressed of Southampton will take his wife out for dinner tonight so I can see which ring I pawn to pay for the boiler!!! Cheers David Afternoon David, it might be worth when asking for quotes to also ask the question if any of the boilermakers might be prepared to build the boiler using the Reeves kit? you never know one might and it could save you a few pounds? Pete
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Post by ettingtonliam on Oct 22, 2021 15:12:47 GMT
Possibly not as big a saving as you might think. I checked out a Reeves boiler kit price and found that I could buy the material from a reputable non ferrous merchant for less than half the price. OK, i had to cut the plates to shape, but thats not a big deal even with my little Record bandsaw.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2021 15:28:12 GMT
Possibly not as big a saving as you might think. I checked out a Reeves boiler kit price and found that I could buy the material from a reputable non ferrous merchant for less than half the price. OK, i had to cut the plates to shape, but thats not a big deal even with my little Record bandsaw. Ah but it could make a difference when you already have the kit. If a BM is happy to use the kit it would safe him the time in making the plates and providing the material. No harm in asking... Pete
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Midland
Elder Statesman
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Post by Midland on Oct 22, 2021 15:50:26 GMT
Hi Pete
Yes,a great solution except that our boiler testers want to see the traceability of the copper which I think means the chemical composition of it. But just as the outlook is looking bleak a ray of sunshire appears. Suggested I could cut off a small bit and have an NDT outfit give me the chemical composition. Something about a spectograph xraymachine (will look it up on google). That should identify the copper and its composition. Then it is suggested that if I do the bashing around the formers, I could pay and get a profesional with the heat and pickling kit to silver solder it together. Just had a Helen Verrall quote for £3+k and 24 months, makes one wonder!! So I think I need to challene the meaning of traceability as there is nothing about it in the BTC. Might start an interesting discussion. I bet Roger knows, let's see what he comes up with. Cheers David
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2021 16:04:45 GMT
Hi Pete Yes,a great solution except that our boiler testers want to see the traceability of the copper which I think means the chemical composition of it. But just as the outlook is looking bleak a ray of sunshire appears. Suggested I could cut off a small bit and have an NDT outfit give me the chemical composition. Something about a spectograph xraymachine (will look it up on google). That should identify the copper and its composition. Then it is suggested that if I do the bashing around the formers, I could pay and get a profesional with the heat and pickling kit to silver solder it together. Just had a Helen Verrall quote for £3+k and 24 months, makes one wonder!! So I think I need to challene the meaning of traceability as there is nothing about it in the BTC. Might start an interesting discussion. I bet Roger knows, let's see what he comes up with. Cheers David Well, I would say two things... Firstly, I doubt if Reeves would sell a kit with unsuitable material (possible but highly unlikely) and second, it would be classed as a professionally built boiler, do your inspectors cut bits off for testing for all so made boilers? I doubt if anyone would question the material from a known boilermaker, I would be surprised if they did so from a well-known boiler kit supplier too??? surely traceability would only involve some dodgy unknown copper off ebay or such? Pete
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Midland
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,875
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Post by Midland on Oct 22, 2021 16:29:13 GMT
Yes Pete I agree. And I will have some more news soon. Watch this space!! D
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Post by ettingtonliam on Oct 22, 2021 18:37:49 GMT
From my days with heavy structural steelwork, traceability has to be done for each type, section and thickness of steel. Going forward to copper boilers, if traceability applies here, then its a test (or paperwork) for each thickness of plate, size of tube and size of stay, probably including bush material as well, plus the silver solder you use. That adds up to a lot of testing, and is not cheap. I can't believe that this is commonly required for copper boilers, though it is for steel ones. Where is the regulation that asks for this in the UK?
I've kept the receipt for my boiler materials, bought from a reputable long established non ferrous metal supplier (John Keatly Metals in Birmingham), plus the wrappers from all the silver solder I've used so far, just in case.
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kipford
Statesman
Building a Don Young 5" Gauge Aspinall Class 27
Posts: 571
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Post by kipford on Oct 22, 2021 22:02:37 GMT
David The BI's are misunderstanding what traceability means. Material with traceability will have a dossier from the mill that states the material composition and what mechanical properties it achieved relative to specification, it is a very expensive exercise and even in aerospace we only used traceable materials where the regulations or requirements demanded it. A second level is the Certificate of Conformity (CofC) where the material is released with a form saying a particular batch meets the specification requirements but no test data is provided. In both cases these documents are signed by approved quality representative of the company. You will not get either of these from an ME supplier only the invoice stating what you have bought, which effectively a CofC without the quality stamp. I agree with you in the boiler test code there is no mandatory requirement to provide traceability on materials only show that it is of a suitable grade, with no guidance as to what that is. The only reference I have found is para 7.4 b which is basically a whole heap of ambiguity. Material 1 by Dave Smith, on Flickr I think what they actually want is simply the third option a piece of paper stating what the material is which would satisfy para 7.4a. What ever you do give the boiler maker you chassis to check first, because that boiler is Bl##dy tight in the frame. Dave
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Midland
Elder Statesman
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Post by Midland on Oct 23, 2021 18:48:09 GMT
Dave I like you last comment, I know what you mean, a bit like me being a bit tight in my trousers!!!! D
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Midland
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Post by Midland on Oct 23, 2021 18:52:12 GMT
Snip - Where is the regulation that asks for this in the UK? Hi I think we have blown that one out of the water now. Thanks and thanks to all. David
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Post by coniston on Oct 24, 2021 21:49:13 GMT
David The BI's are misunderstanding what traceability means. Material with traceability will have a dossier from the mill that states the material composition and what mechanical properties it achieved relative to specification, it is a very expensive exercise and even in aerospace we only used traceable materials where the regulations or requirements demanded it. A second level is the Certificate of Conformity (CofC) where the material is released with a form saying a particular batch meets the specification requirements but no test data is provided. In both cases these documents are signed by approved quality representative of the company. You will not get either of these from an ME supplier only the invoice stating what you have bought, which effectively a CofC without the quality stamp. I agree with you in the boiler test code there is no mandatory requirement to provide traceability on materials only show that it is of a suitable grade, with no guidance as to what that is. The only reference I have found is para 7.4 b which is basically a whole heap of ambiguity. Material 1 by Dave Smith, on Flickr I think what they actually want is simply the third option a piece of paper stating what the material is which would satisfy para 7.4a. What ever you do give the boiler maker you chassis to check first, because that boiler is Bl##dy tight in the frame. Dave Dave(s), the difference in buying a commercial boiler and building one yourself regarding certification is the commercial builder has to comply with the the UK version of CE. that means supplying material C of C's. For the commercial boilers I have they are accompanied with a statement signed by the builder hat is sufficient to comply with the regulations and sometimes accompanied with the C of C from their supplier. I have heard commercial builders will not build from a customers kit or materials as they cannot then provide any source of C of C for the material, it is only really a paper trail but still a requirement. As an aside I am unaware of any grade of copper that is not suitable (of course now everyone will tell me of many) for model steam boilers so it really is irrelevant but still a necessity for correct compliance for a commercial boiler put on the market for sale. Chris
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Post by cplmickey on Oct 29, 2021 8:39:57 GMT
As an aside I am unaware of any grade of copper that is not suitable (of course now everyone will tell me of many) for model steam boilers so it really is irrelevant but still a necessity for correct compliance for a commercial boiler put on the market for sale. Chris That's my understanding too. As copper is an element rather than an alloy or mix of elements, copper is copper. Ian
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uuu
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Post by uuu on Oct 29, 2021 8:55:52 GMT
Ah, yes. But there are impurities in some grades of copper that make it unsuitable for welding, for example. My commercial boiler, although mostly soldered, has some welded elements, so the certification is relevant in this case.
Wilf
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mbrown
Elder Statesman
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Post by mbrown on Oct 29, 2021 15:43:49 GMT
C106 is described as de-oxidised copper. Not sure what that means exactly, but I can guess oxygen in the mix could seriously affect welds.
Malcolm
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uuu
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Post by uuu on Oct 29, 2021 15:53:47 GMT
Which reminds me of an IWMES member who had his main boiler tube welded from a rolled flat sheet. The chap doing the welding was appropriately qualified, but the inspector rejected it, because the copper had no paperwork. The agreed solution was to solder a strap over the weld.
Wilf
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Midland
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Post by Midland on Feb 13, 2022 12:19:36 GMT
Hi All This wretched thing emerges again. My boiler is inbuild and will be here soonish. I have been asked to make some of the backhead fittings and need to get gunmetal, bronze et. Who is the preferred supplier these days. I have used MK before but does anyone have other preferences? Thanks David
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