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Post by Cro on Dec 23, 2014 22:38:28 GMT
I should have asked, think mum is friends with one of them so could send her in to ask then she can face the odd looks instead of me. So a bit more progress today making the small 'on/off' cover and the dummy valve for the top (unsure if this was a release valve or adjuster for the vacuum, if anyone knows please shout) but the valve is essentially finished now and I am just doing the pipe work bits so I can set it up to a test rig and awaiting the arrival of the 14ba nuts tomorrow to allow me to actually put it together properly. When I initially had the casting made I neglected to think about how I was going to add threads to the stubs to screw fittings onto so for the purpose of testing and this being a prototype I am going to Silver Solder the pipes and there 'nuts' on to the casting. I am going to experiment with the model before the next casting is made and try and produce the thread in the casting but this is yet to be looked into in great detail. I realise the bolt heads are slightly on the large side so will be looking at some other options but tomorrow I will make some "small headed" 14ba's Adam
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Post by Roger on Dec 23, 2014 22:48:20 GMT
That's a real work of art, you must be very proud of that.
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Post by Cro on Dec 23, 2014 22:52:33 GMT
That's a real work of art, you must be very proud of that. I really am, it was one achievement getting the CAD model done from the drawings as it was first time I'd used works drawings for anything and they aren't the easiest to work out on this but to have actually got this in front of me is something else. I just can't wait to test it out and see what happens. I will be getting a load more castings in once I have made some changes to the CAD models and will make a whole batch of them in different gauges working and dummy as there has been a bit of interest and they are just so satisfying to make. Any idea what these could sell for? Adam
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Post by Rob on Dec 23, 2014 23:05:56 GMT
If the other scale bits and pieces that are commercially available are anything to go by, quite a bit I should think.
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Post by jma1009 on Dec 24, 2014 0:17:53 GMT
hi adam,
i would be a bit careful about revealing too much on here if you are thinking of going 'commercial'. i designed and made a few 5"g GWR steam brake combined vacuum brake valves (the Armstrong/Churchward 'setter' valves fitted to steam braked non-express locos) and wrote them up with dimensioned drawings in the club newsletter only to find some 20 years later a certain well known individual 'pinched' the design as 'his own' for commercial purposes (perhaps by then he thought i was dead - but little did he know!). a few strongly worded emails pointing out my drawings and design were copyrighted put him straight. i was happy to let him copy the design as long as due credit was given to me as im not in this game to make any money - it's just a hobby for me and im very pleased if anything ive done gets copied - so long as if it's for commercial purposes i get a bit of credit - however this particular individual seemed to initially have a problem with this!
the valve looks quite superb! very impressed! it just shows what can be achieved when you spend a bit of time and thought over fiddly bits.
cheers, julian
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Post by Cro on Dec 24, 2014 0:29:26 GMT
Julian,
Thanks for the advice, I don't think I have given too much away in terms of anything critical and as I get time I'd like to produce a few more items including this in different gauges but would like to think of people are interested they feel they can chat to me about it. Happy to help where I can.
Adam
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Post by Roger on Dec 24, 2014 7:31:07 GMT
To be honest I have no idea what they would go for commercially. These days people expect something for next to nothing so to command a price you have to make something that others can't. I think we're going to see quite a few projects like these spring up commercially now that 3D printing is finally coming of age so my advice is to get in early and get what you can for it, the prices are only going to go down over time. Also, be sure that you want to dedicate your time to this. Business is frankly boring in my opinion and I do it because it's necessary rather than because I enjoy it. The engineering element of it is fine, but unless you're making a good living from what you're doing, the profits can quickly be swallowed up in accountants fees and your time with paperwork.
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Post by Cro on Dec 24, 2014 9:40:41 GMT
For me, at the moment whilst still at university and looking for a job, this is just a sideline and I will always state I am doing these in my free time as and when I can to suit the needs of fellow model engineers as I enjoy making these bits. I am slowly getting together a list of bits and pieces that I can try produce and try and get as many scale items to function as possible. If anyone is interested in this or something similar drop me a message. Hopefully by the end of today I should have this finished, fingers crossed! Adam
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JDEng
Part of the e-furniture
Posts: 384
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Post by JDEng on Dec 24, 2014 9:56:23 GMT
the dummy valve for the top (unsure if this was a release valve or adjuster for the vacuum, if anyone knows please shout) Adam Adam, You're doing a cracking job there, well done. The pepperpot on the top is the cover for the vacuum relief valve. Inside is a spring loaded valve which prevents the vacuum in the trainpipe from rising above 21" Hg. Regards and Merry Christmas to all. John.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2014 10:10:22 GMT
If the pepper pot is as the dreadnought type then it is both a limit valve to keep the vac to 21" when in service which at the same time is adjustable so it can be set exactly to 21" by the fitters
Hope this helps
Ben
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2014 10:35:53 GMT
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Post by Rob on Dec 24, 2014 10:49:23 GMT
To be honest I have no idea what they would go for commercially. These days people expect something for next to nothing so to command a price you have to make something that others can't. I think we're going to see quite a few projects like these spring up commercially now that 3D printing is finally coming of age so my advice is to get in early and get what you can for it, the prices are only going to go down over time. I agree with this. When I looked at the prices for some of the other scale items that are commercially available, it got me thinking about making my own. If the cost is too high I'd rather spend the money on the equipment to make them myself, as it then gives you added satisfaction of producing the parts yourself, rather than paying someone else to do them. So, I think a balance has to be struck on the price to actually attract customers in the first place. Ideally, to work out what they go for commercially, you should work out what they cost you, both in terms of materials/services and time. Then decide what sort of profit you'd like for each one (10%, 50%, 3456% etc) and then you have your price. You know you can't charge less than what it costs you in materials/services and time, so from this you can decide if it's commercially viable.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2014 11:02:31 GMT
Alan, this has been an interesting issue at the Bluebell for a while, as the Dukedog has been out of service for a while now and I haven't doubleheader with any of the other western visitors, I can only vaguely remember about this. If I recall correctly the Standards have the pepper pot directly on the train pipe and will limit a western ejector/pump to 21", this causes issues with the Dukedog as it had a combined steam/vac brake so the driver had to have their wits about them and make sure the steam brake hadn't locked on (Dukedogs favourite trick if the brake wasn't operated as it liked it to be!) However with a Dreadnought ejector doubleheading with the Dukedog because of all the additional air valves and gubbins in the ejector, the pepper pot was isolated from the train pipe unless the dreadnought itself was creating the vac. so in this case the Dog would have to create, as the pump would go to 25" anyway while on the move, the dreadnought would be used for braking though if that engine was the lead engine. All clear now?? Cheers Ben
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Post by Roger on Dec 24, 2014 12:03:50 GMT
To be honest I have no idea what they would go for commercially. These days people expect something for next to nothing so to command a price you have to make something that others can't. I think we're going to see quite a few projects like these spring up commercially now that 3D printing is finally coming of age so my advice is to get in early and get what you can for it, the prices are only going to go down over time. I agree with this. When I looked at the prices for some of the other scale items that are commercially available, it got me thinking about making my own. If the cost is too high I'd rather spend the money on the equipment to make them myself, as it then gives you added satisfaction of producing the parts yourself, rather than paying someone else to do them. So, I think a balance has to be struck on the price to actually attract customers in the first place. Ideally, to work out what they go for commercially, you should work out what they cost you, both in terms of materials/services and time. Then decide what sort of profit you'd like for each one (10%, 50%, 3456% etc) and then you have your price. You know you can't charge less than what it costs you in materials/services and time, so from this you can decide if it's commercially viable. I should also add the term 'Profit' can be a very misleading unless you factor in the hours you spend. I appreciate that this is your spare time but do you really want to sell that for a low hourly rate?
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Post by Cro on Dec 24, 2014 13:00:43 GMT
Thanks for that snippet of info, for now I have made it as a dummy, no doubt something I can work on if need be in the future.
I think the more direct question then is what would people be willing to pay for these then? If I work out my hours roughly, ignoring the trials I did on certain bits it's probably around 12-14 hours worth of actual work but like I say a lot of it has been working bits out and adjusting my drawings so i imagine if I got stuck into it, doing them in batches also will help, I would have it done a bit faster. The 14ba nuts and bolts just arrived so time to go finish it off! Adam
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Post by Rob on Dec 24, 2014 13:57:39 GMT
Well, to be perfectly honest if you want to pay yourself a decent wage for doing this, the cost of 12-14 hours is already far more than I'd be willing to pay. Even if you got your time down to 5 hours you're looking at 100 quid in your time alone - presumably materials, casting, electricity, cups of tea, 47 replacement drill bits, shipping etc came to at least another 50-100 - So around 200 quid. I wouldn't pay that much, I'd be looking to make it myself at that price, but that's not to say someone else won't! If you can knock 'em out in an hour, that's more like it! Perhaps CNC would be handy, especially for all the little holes!
Perhaps it might be worth putting it on Ebay, see what the interest is like? Maybe set the reserve at cost, and see if you get enough interest to make some decent profit. You could take the pressure off yourself without the hassle of orders then - put them up for sale as and when you have time to make 'em.
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Post by Cro on Dec 24, 2014 14:21:06 GMT
The plan is to have some items done CNC with a friend so it could come down massively in time and I am having a few more items cast which will also help.
If I was to compare it to the BR style one I have on the 9f that sells at £150......
No rush to sell anything was just curious to find out what people thought.
Adam
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Post by joanlluch on Dec 24, 2014 14:24:05 GMT
Hi Adam,
I think Roger is totally right.
Also, when starting a new business we often forget that 80% is operations. As operations I include management, customer relations and service. A successful business depends to a great extend on how good you are at that. By this I mean that others may attempt to do what you do, but only the one that really cares about customer expectations (such as quality, service, price, flexibility...) is the one that will win.
In this particular case you may face the problem of very disparate types of customers. Some will understand the value of what you offer and will pay for it. Some will understand it but will attempt to do it by themselves (not real customers), or some may even hate that somebody (you) is producing such a superb parts that anyone else will be able to use. Others, less informed ones, will just think that your parts are too expensive. It may be tricky to make all of them happy, in my opinion.
Ultimately, what you are doing will help the hobby in general. Unfortunately there will be less and less people in the future who love steam locomotives, so you may eventually switch or compliment your business by producing parts for other modellers.
To be successful as a business, at some point you will need to think more in terms of 'profit' than in terms of 'creative expression'. When that stage arrives, then you will cease to enjoy it that much.
As for my experience, I started two businesses in my life, one of them extremely successful, and another one a total failure. The one that failed started from a hobby. The reason it failed was because I wanted my product to be perfect and thus I payed much more attention to detail and 'creative expression' than to 'profit'. The one that was a success I didn't like it, the fact I didn't like that business helped me to focus on what really mattered: 'profit'. Now I am retired at 49 y.o. and providing consultant services just to keep myself busy.
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Post by Roger on Dec 24, 2014 14:33:09 GMT
I learned two things about business I'll share with you. Profitable things tend to be boring and unsatisfying, and it's easy to fill your time with interesting things that are unprofitable. You have to make up your mind whether it's a business for making proper money, or a hobby/business that barely makes pocket money. Look at all those craft stands you see at country shows and you'll see countless examples of the latter.
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Post by Cro on Dec 24, 2014 14:37:53 GMT
Thanks for that, a very interesting way of looking at it and I totally agree with how you view different types of customers. There will always be some interested and some who don't appreciate it, this is a starting point to help people out so for now, not thinking along the lines of a business and as a friend has always said he wouldn't want his hobby to be his job as he wouldn't be able to enjoy the hobby and I agree.
Fancy finding me an idea like that so I can retire at your age?! Adam
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