jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Post by jma1009 on Mar 30, 2015 9:49:46 GMT
here's a youtube clip www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMvwDCC_0FAthe Poole Park Miniature Railway is 10.25"g and rather unusual these days in not being fenced in and crosses many roads and paths in the park. in the above clip i could see no sign of a Guard at all on the train, neither did the driver 'look back' once. the accident happened just before the bridge at around 6.45min in the above clip. there are quite tight bends and at this point the bend leads into a gradient over the bridge. have close look at the track. i used to know very well the old Littlehampton Miniature Railway also built by SMR in 1949, and this used prefabricated sections of track with pressed steel sleepers. the Poole carriages and bogies look very similar if not identical to the Littlehampton ones i used to know. cheers, julian
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Post by ejparrott on Mar 30, 2015 9:52:35 GMT
It's not an MES then?
Weston Park don't have Guards either, it's a practice I really don't like, but then I've been brought up operating much bigger and BoT inspected railways anyway
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
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Post by jma1009 on Mar 30, 2015 10:02:34 GMT
hi ed,
it's a privately run commercial business.
in the old days the local authority would grant the operator what was known as a 'concession' to operate for a set number of years with the council being paid an annual fee plus sometimes also a share of the ticket receipts. there was no lease as such. at the end of the concession period things would be reviewed.
unfortunately so far as the 'fixtures and fittings' are concerned eg the track this isnt a good way of encouraging investment.
rolling stock and locos remain the property of the operator, but not much use if you havent anywhere to run them if the concession isnt renewed!
cheers, julian
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 8:11:43 GMT
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Post by simplyloco on Mar 31, 2015 8:37:49 GMT
Very possible, but in my ignorance I would expect that large scale track like that would have some visual indicators of point position? I like the way 'Council Officers are investigating the incident' whatever that means... John
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Post by ejparrott on Mar 31, 2015 9:18:28 GMT
I'm sceptical. Why would the loco and 2 carriages clear it no problems.
I have to say, having watch the video Julian linked for us, as a driver of miniature trains of long standing, and as a responsible member of footplate staff on the Talyllyn, the driver is unfit for the duty, and were he to present like that to me at Rugby for driver training and assessment for Public Running duties, he would fail. Something that is made even worse by the fact they run with no Guards!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 9:24:19 GMT
as a side note... did anyone see that article earlier this week about the steam train that was stopped across an inter city main line..can't remember where but IIRC early reports say the driver overrode the auto brake system at a distance signal( not sure if that's the correct terminology) and then failed to stop in time for the stop signal further up, ended up straddled across the inter-city mainline, I believe for both the up and down lines? Now that is pretty frightening..... EDIT: just found the link www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-32113342
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Post by jma1009 on Mar 31, 2015 10:27:24 GMT
re the Poole Park accident and the operator chris bullen's statement that the accident was due to sabotage, (to use mandy rice davies' phrase) 'he would say that wouldnt he'!
facing point on a curve without check rails, just before a bridge and on a gradient. presume it was locked anyway?
cheers, julian
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Post by digger on Mar 31, 2015 11:52:40 GMT
We had an incident many years ago on our raised track, someone had wrapped a wire handlle off a paint can around the running rails, virtually impossible to see, it derailed a members locomotive, and could have resulted in a serious accident, what makes these morons do things like that? You really do need to be vigalant if passenger hauling.
Digger
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 11:59:35 GMT
We had an incident many years ago on our raised track, someone had wrapped a wire handlle off a paint can around the running rails, virtually impossible to see, it derailed a members locomotive, and could have resulted in a serious accident, what makes these morons do things like that? You really do need to be vigalant if passenger hauling. Digger That is sickening digger... one of the reasons that I chose the North London club over the Harrow club ( beside the fact that I was invited and made welcome) was becauset it's on private land and not open to the public except on open days, having said that there was an incident I'm told when some yobs had placed a driving trolley on the track in the tunnel, impossible to see when driving resulting in a derailment and I believe the loco leaving the raised track, not sure though as it was only something that a member mentioned one open day when it was my turn to steward. Pete
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Post by heronsgate on Mar 31, 2015 12:11:26 GMT
Just a passing thought on this topic, how did the rest of the train pass through the points while the carriage in question became derailed towards the rear of the train, especially if there was an object placed to force the point blades open. Surely there was not enough time between wheel sets to do such a thing, even without being seen. Driver in the short clip used appeared to not have much interest with what was taking place behind him, more interested in waving to passers by. Does not do much good for many of us that run passenger carrying trains in local authority parks etc. Hopefully there will not be too many (if any) repercussions from this episode.
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Post by keith6233 on Mar 31, 2015 12:40:28 GMT
as a side note... did anyone see that article earlier this week about the steam train that was stopped across an inter city main line..can't remember where but IIRC early reports say the driver overrode the auto brake system at a distance signal( not sure if that's the correct terminology) and then failed to stop in time for the stop signal further up, ended up straddled across the inter-city mainline, I believe for both the up and down lines? Now that is pretty frightening..... EDIT: just found the link www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-32113342If this was as black and white as the report suggests the crew would have been immediately relieved and not allowed to continue. www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/150307_wootton_bassett.cfm
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 13:07:16 GMT
Thanks for that more in depth report Keith..it certainly looks like the driver/fireman are at fault here...god knows what they were thinking...hopefully all will becme clear in due course and thank god no inter-city's were approaching the junction at the time as it would have been a horrific accident, perhaps the even more so than Harrow and Wealdstone in 1952??
Pete
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jackrae
Elder Statesman
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Post by jackrae on Mar 31, 2015 15:13:44 GMT
Or Quintinshill, 1915, the worst ever in the UK, when 227 were killed. There's still a controversy over the findings of that accident enquiry.
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Post by alanstepney on Mar 31, 2015 18:01:26 GMT
I know the Poole Park track and have seen it often. I would say that deliberate action to derail it is possible, and probably likely.
I wont say that it definately happened as I dont have any specific information.
But, I do hope that we get a full and detailed explanation when the investigation is concluded. In some ways, it can be compared with the traction engine "incident", at Medina Ohio. At least we got a fully detailed report which enabled others to review their procedures.
PS, as for Harrow & W train crash, I actually saw that. A real mess!
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Post by marshall5 on Mar 31, 2015 18:18:54 GMT
According to the article in the current 'Steam Railway' the FGW HST was due through the junction at 17.20 but was running late and actually passed through about 17.24. The special hauled by BB class 'Tangmere' passed signal SN45 protecting the junction at danger at 17.26 (running about 1 min. late). A minute early rather than a minute late and things could have been very different. Ray.
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steam4ian
Elder Statesman
One good turn deserves another
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Post by steam4ian on Apr 1, 2015 8:01:36 GMT
The eye witness account seems credible and concise. At SASMEE we have had incidents with people on the train taking photos. I witnessed on where a bloke turned around to get a photo of his girl. The train derailed and engine close to turned over before I could get the driver's attention. The only injury was the driver's ankle got sprained and he, an older driver has lost confidence. Taking photos when on trains is now banned. How do you stop people taking photos when everybody as a mobile phone with a camera?. With vigilance, tact and sometimes just plain straight talking.
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Tony K
Elder Statesman
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Post by Tony K on Apr 1, 2015 8:33:14 GMT
......I have to say, having watch the video Julian linked for us, as a driver of miniature trains of long standing, and as a responsible member of footplate staff on the Talyllyn, the driver is unfit for the duty, and were he to present like that to me at Rugby for driver training and assessment for Public Running duties, he would fail. Something that is made even worse by the fact they run with no Guards! Ed, is it possible for you to outline for us what you find particularly offensive please. Kind regards, Tony
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Post by ejparrott on Apr 1, 2015 9:28:56 GMT
I can. In no particular order, I'm having trouble with the PC at the moment, what I'd like to do is have the Youtube video running on one screen and the forum on the other, but Mozilla keeps crashing when I have 2 screens open, so I'll have to do this from memory, so it might get spread over several posts, and I can't quote the time points in the video.
First and foremost, never once looks back along the train. This is compounded by the fact that there is no Guard, something he was obviously aware of when he started.
Next up, woman and a kid coming towards him on bikes. IIRC blows the whistle, then completly takes his eye off them and is more concerned about the contents of the firebox. What he should have been doing is keeping an extremely close eye on the cyclists, with one hand on the regulator and one on the train brake valve ready to stop in an emergency. As already pointed out, there are no fences, the path is right alongside the railway, and the kid was wobbling all over the place. If the kid had fell over in front of the train, he wouldn't even have known it, never mind stopped in time. That said, I haven't seen any evidence of a train brake yet. EDIT: 5:15 they first come in to view and (I think) he spots them, but then proceeds to completly ignor them until he looks up again about 5:30, by which time he's almost level with and in no way prepared to stop should he have to.
Just after leaving the station, IIRC, blind left hand bend, big tall hedge on the left, driver sitting on left of engine so massivly reduced vision in any case. As already pointed out, no fences. Instead of paying attention to where he was going, prepared to stop in case some lunatic was standing on the track picking stuff out of the hedge, he's got his head in the firebox...really clever..... EDIT : 2:55...he wasn't firing at the time, that was memory lapse for the reason I stated. The point still stands though, he was not paying attention when he should have been!
I'll have another watch of the video and get back, what I'll probably do is edit this post rather than write more and more posts, POC permitting of course! I think a scrap and reinstall of mozilla might be on the cards.....
EDIT: ADDITIONAL:
Goes over the level crossing just after the station, never once checks back to make sure that the train has cleared the crossing safely. It goes with the first point, but it is a location that extra notice should be taken!
There's a great long stretch around the 5:50 mark where he seems intent on emptying the bunker and filling the firebox, during which he hardly pays any attention to where he's going or what's happening around him. Not only that, but what's he hoping to achieve? He's about to start a climb up to a bridge, there's no way that coal will have had chance to catch and do him any good. All that's going to happen is that he'll be blowing off in the station! Oh look.....
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Post by jma1009 on Apr 1, 2015 10:26:52 GMT
have a look at 1min and the state of the track alongside the platform.
driver gets off. steam pouring out of injector so he refills the tank (which was presumably empty - why injector was billowing steam).
driver using mobile phone whilst performing his duties (a sackable offence on the national network).
safety valves blowing off in station. blower left on when not required. firehole door left wide open.
more concerned about playing with whistle than ensuring the handbrake is released before opening regulator. opens regulator with handbrake still on!
4.30min safety valves blowing off again. right hand injector not operated correctly in next shot. driver belatedly notices and gets injector to work.
Ed's point about the bike riders at 5.25 is pretty damning. and what about firing 'little and often'?! it has always been a requirement of drivers to 'always keep a good look out'.
cheers, julian
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