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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 10:30:22 GMT
(1) Milestones and fob watches . Worked for the old stagecoaches and for railways from the very beginning up until recent times .
(2) With many club tracks being continuous runs of known length a time per lap will give you the average speed and simple observation will show any excess speed being used on parts of the lap .
(3) I would suggest though that sensible speed is more a matter of common sense than strict measurement .
(4) Related to safe running speed is the track design and maintenance standard .
(5) Someone in a magazine a while back made the proposal that all passenger cars for public running should be for 7-1/4 inch gauge minimum to give reasonably guaranteed stability .
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Post by steamcoal on May 24, 2015 23:57:52 GMT
My distance over time at our club track was 120seconds for 247 metres.
2.058 Meters per Second = 4.60361488904796 Miles per Hour=7.4088 Kilometers per Hour
Quite happy with this speed. If we did 8mph my speed would turn me into a vector and I am sure to be fired off on a curve into the bushes.
Often I do a time trial around the track to try to make consistent lap times, iphone is good tool for that especially when one has steep downhill grades.
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Post by ejparrott on May 26, 2015 8:31:26 GMT
Ed sounds like a brilliant idea, as I am making a drivers truck I can fit one in that, then I can use it for any engine. Do I hear cries of "tight fisted" Regards Paul Not at all....my own engines will be getting exactly the same, though I have 2 driving trucks so will still have to fork out twice! (4) Related to safe running speed is the track design and maintenance standard . Absolutly, and that's why we've upped the GL speed limit (5) Someone in a magazine a while back made the proposal that all passenger cars for public running should be for 7-1/4 inch gauge minimum to give reasonably guaranteed stability . That's fine, but why not 10.252? or 15"? Just where do you stop? I've been running 5" (raised track) passenger carrying trains for many many years now, and 7.25" GL nearly as long. I've never had any problems with one of those 5" trains, and frankly I don't like 7.25" elevated tracks for loco's anyway. I assume they were talking about the ground level tracks.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2015 15:46:48 GMT
(5) Someone in a magazine a while back made the proposal that all passenger cars for public running should be for 7-1/4 inch gauge minimum to give reasonably guaranteed stability . That's fine, but why not 10.252? or 15"? Just where do you stop? I've been running 5" (raised track) passenger carrying trains for many many years now, and 7.25" GL nearly as long. I've never had any problems with one of those 5" trains, and frankly I don't like 7.25" elevated tracks for loco's anyway. I assume they were talking about the ground level tracks. Hi Ed , I agree . Anyway not everything has to be the biggest or the best or the most expensive : I ran a short 3-1/2 inch gauge straight run line for my Tich when first built . Ground level and made mostly from scrap iron bed frames - I don't think any two sections of track were the same ! Anyway with my little Tich driving car with a box on it and the engine itself I used to run up and down merrilly . (Track was level with local gradients of 1 in 3 by the way). There's a splendid picture in Model Engineer of a Japanese gentleman driving his 1-3/4 inch gauge narrow gauge engine on a 1-3/4 inch gauge ground level track . Never saw one of the legendary 2-1/2 inch gauge elevated lines of long ago but there are pictures of long trains of very staid looking gentlemen smoking pipes being hauled quite safely ! MichaelW
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jackrae
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,333
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Post by jackrae on May 26, 2015 19:17:16 GMT
Stability in relation to track gauge must also take into consideration whether the track is elevated or ground level. An elevated track permits the passenger weight to be nearer the track than with GL and hence the centre of gravity of the combined truck+passenger is lower. Also consider that the passenger and truck do not form a rigid structure and if the truck bogies are sprung, neither does the truck with respect to the tipping rotation point (where the wheel contacts the track). The mechanics of stability assessment are not quite as simple as at first sight.
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nonort
Part of the e-furniture
If all the worlds a Stage someone's nicked the Horses
Posts: 277
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Post by nonort on May 26, 2015 21:50:39 GMT
Reading the articles by the late Bill Perrett of Southampton and IMLEC fame about his design of passenger carridge. I seem to remember that the Southampton raised track was built for 12mph running with the transitions and super elevation being set for this speed. It does mean that you have to maintain the track to a very high standard. Something which I doubt is possible today as the skill base to carry out the continuous maintenance is lost. if you reduce the running speed then you should re assess the super elevation on the whole track. As the center of force changes with the speed, if you hold a pendulum whist riding the curve it should not move from the position it sits at on the straight, to much speed the pendulum will move away to slow and it will fall to the center. Lowering the speed will cause more drag and more wear on the engine particularily on the side that is on the inside of the curve, unless you go in opposite directions on alternate weeks or months.
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jackrae
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,333
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Post by jackrae on May 27, 2015 5:44:48 GMT
........ Lowering the speed will cause more drag and more wear on the engine particularily on the side that is on the inside of the curve, unless you go in opposite directions on alternate weeks or months. That is an interesting point about wear. Does anyone actually have documented data they are willing to share about differential wear and whether or not the wheels were coned
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Post by ejparrott on May 27, 2015 8:22:03 GMT
Does this count: www.youtube.com/watch?v=OD1t4BedIhw&feature=youtu.beOur old carriage wheelsets on our raised track really are worn out beyond belief. They are iron, and split so that on curves the one should rotate fast than the other - differential effect. They've got practically no coning on them either. One of our members has made a new steel wheelset and this is the trial video comparing the old and knackered with a brand new steel set, on a 1:250 downhill. I think it speaks for itself, and should settle any arguments about coning versus parallel treads.
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Post by steamcoal on May 27, 2015 9:14:36 GMT
Is speed really the top prority?
Surely the journey should be the intent ( for the driver) unless the committee sutipulate that certain revenues targets are to be attained. If clubs stipulate you have to haul at least two passanger cars then obviously revenue is the name of the game and the more punters the better and the faster you go the more the money rolls in.
As for stability I think that those chaps who rode side saddle did very well, considering too that their smoking pipes required attent too. I never felt comfortable on a ground level track but it is a challange.
For me its the journey not the speed.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2015 10:01:50 GMT
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jackrae
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,333
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Post by jackrae on May 27, 2015 12:59:45 GMT
Does this count: www.youtube.com/watch?v=OD1t4BedIhw&feature=youtu.beOur old carriage wheelsets on our raised track really are worn out beyond belief. They are iron, and split so that on curves the one should rotate fast than the other - differential effect. They've got practically no coning on them either. One of our members has made a new steel wheelset and this is the trial video comparing the old and knackered with a brand new steel set, on a 1:250 downhill. I think it speaks for itself, and should settle any arguments about coning versus parallel treads. Did exactly the same demonstration on my local track many years ago to try and convince the sceptics of the advantages of coned treads. A single axle with coned wheels solidly fixed, just like yours, was "launched" along our 660 foot oval track and after a few minutes it had completed the whole circuit without any intervention or falling off. Still some of the sceptics weren't convinced. Horses to water troughs !!
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Post by Roger on May 29, 2015 8:31:16 GMT
Does this count: www.youtube.com/watch?v=OD1t4BedIhw&feature=youtu.beOur old carriage wheelsets on our raised track really are worn out beyond belief. They are iron, and split so that on curves the one should rotate fast than the other - differential effect. They've got practically no coning on them either. One of our members has made a new steel wheelset and this is the trial video comparing the old and knackered with a brand new steel set, on a 1:250 downhill. I think it speaks for itself, and should settle any arguments about coning versus parallel treads. I should think this superb demonstration would finally convince the most hardened believers that tapered treads are superior. I imagine there must me a huge difference in the rolling resistance of passenger carriages.
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Post by ejparrott on May 29, 2015 11:41:35 GMT
That's what I'm expecting...we'll be having 2.5" public passenger hauling next!
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2015 11:47:51 GMT
That's what I'm expecting...we'll be having 2.5" public passenger hauling next! Hi Ed , Be interesting to conjecture what the lower gauge limit for steam passenger hauling is - it's certainly been done in 'O'gauge ! Regards , Michael .
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Post by ejparrott on May 29, 2015 12:19:52 GMT
Well..there are so many factors to it it'd be difficult to say exactly. I've seen 32mm hauling people. I'm convinced a 2.5" NGG16 would give outstanding performance, even if not built with scientifically perfected bits like boilers and cylinders.
In all seriousness though, I have for many years wondered why my Hunslet always seemed to make very hard work hauling 3 of Rugby's coaches - well I say 3, they're artic sets so only 4 bogies - at Swansea I used to haul 2 much heavier vacuum braked coaches no problems, and IIRC on some steeper gradients.....this may be why!!
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2015 12:49:23 GMT
Engineers at Beyer Peacock were among the best and I'm sure they optimised the design quite well .
You may know that a relative of one of these engines ran on standard gauge here at the Vivian works - and that engine is definately on my retirement build list . Not yet decided the gauge though .
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Post by alanstepney on May 29, 2015 15:46:57 GMT
That's what I'm expecting...we'll be having 2.5" public passenger hauling next! That used to be the gauge used at ME exhibitions, and was common for passenger hauling
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Post by steamcoal on Jun 20, 2015 8:44:09 GMT
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Post by electrosteam on Jun 20, 2015 21:53:31 GMT
My wife and I travelled on the Driving Creek Railway earlier this year. It is one man's dream originally started to transport clay down the hills to the kilns. The railway progressed, but the pottery business diminished to being only a hobby with numerous artists from around the world staying on property for joint artistic pottery production.
It is am absolutely amazing experience for a model railway engineer enthusiast because it operates and runs like one of our club railways in that all the normal prototype safety aspects are pushed to the limits to give the riders an experience they will remember - including close encounters with trees, rock walls and high drops.
I can just picture how easily an excited child could exit a car into a chasm.
I remarked at the time to a couple of my fellow travellers that the entire railway would give any OH&S inspector in Australia apoplexy.
The operating staff are extremely safety conscious, there are two staff on each train, numerous repetitive warnings about the situation, wide angle mirrors for the driver and I can confirm he absolutely checked that all passengers were in their seats with elbows in at all times.
Most of the passenger cars are all-drive diesel hydraulic and the speed is quite slow. They have a few locomotives freight vehicles for maintenance tasks, no steam.
Anyone visiting NZ must make an effort to experience this incredible railway.
John.
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Post by steamcoal on Jun 21, 2015 9:10:49 GMT
I thought it might be an experience that one of the overseas members might comment on. I myself have not been on the journey but like you explain it it something remarkable. Lets hope the toddler makes a speedy recovery.
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