New locomotive; suggestions ?

[erikjan]

Midland .  Thanks for the suggestion. Already some good ideas were posted; but this book, which I do own,  was one I forgot about. Spent the afternoon reading in it; and indeed some very nice locos and technical descriptions and lots details. 
The old LBSC railway locos are very nice indeed what got me thinking about the old plan of building a Terrier. The book shows many details of Stroudley's engines. 
Still not sure about it (and I do have some work on the T3, which gives me time to think); but I've found that this forum has also much information on the Stroudley Terriers. And there are several preserved.

But so much to choose from.


I've made a quick sketch  of it in Solidworks to compare it with the T3...............



Regards

Erik-Jan

[dscott]

I have a part built one and here is a locomotive that does indeed needs to go onto Solidworks and all
the errors sorting out once and for all!!!
This is why mine is all in bits waiting on the first thing I made to be put right.
Now if the drawing had said silver solder or the pattern had the valve guides included all would have been fine!!

You dont have to come very far into England to visit 4 of the preserved and you could always do my current
CHEAT of ordering one from Dapol in O gauge. The detail on these models is superb.
The Kent and East Susex and The Bluebell Railways!

At the London Exhibition they had an E2 which is the bigger version I looked into as I find myself with a set
of 4 foot 6 inch wheels with 14 spokes which came with the part built Jinty which needs 15 spokes!!!
Only 168 pages of Brighton Drawings to look through at York he jokes?
Page 9 thankfully! I do have a Terrier works drawing somewhere!

3 Adults capacity!!

Best regards.
David and Lily.

[Jim Scott]

Jan 20, 2018 21:31:01 GMT erikjan said:

Midland . 
.......
The old LBSC railway locos are very nice indeed what got me thinking about the old plan of building a Terrier. The book shows many details of Stroudley's engines. 
Still not sure about it (and I do have some work on the T3, which gives me time to think); but I've found that this forum has also much information on the Stroudley Terriers. And there are several preserved.
.......

Hi Erik-Jan

I suspect most of the 7 1/4" gauge Terriers were at least in part based on Don Young's Newport design. Although this is good you now have chance to produce the definitive LBSC (A1 for preference) Terrier. You are more than capable and you (and I) know you really want to...!

Kind regards

Jim S

[fostergp6nhp]

How about for the next build an engine that was built here and has come home to retire, a couple I can think of are a South African Railways class 15F or again South African, a class NG G16.

[terrier060]

HI Erik-Jan

I would not claim to be an expert, but if you do decide on a 'Terrier' and I can be of any help, please do not be afraid to ask. This forum has a collection of brilliant modellers who are all generous with their time, ideas and help. The 'Terrier' in 7.25" gauge is a nice-sized locomotive. It is about the size of a 5" gauge 'Speedy' which can be lifted by two reasonably fit people.

My version is from the original drawings published in 'The Engineer' and 'Engineering' magazines which are available in most good libraries. There is plenty of information out there and many modellers have built it in 5" and 7.25" gauge. There are also many working full-size examples at various heritage railways. The best example of an original A class is in the National Railway Museum in York. Between us I am sure there are copious photographs of locomotive details.

Good luck with your decision - I am sure it is going to be a great model to watch with interest.

Ed

[mutley]

Hi Erik-Jan,

How about one of the Austerity 0-6-0 saddle tanks engines, very similar to the LNER J94. Built in quantity and shipped to Europe. You would have a wide choice of liveries to choose from and there has been some design work already done in 7.25" with an example running.

[erikjan]

mutley ;  the 0-6-0 Saddle tank austerity is a great loco; we even had one run here in the neighbourhood of Eindhoven on preserved railway (alas it doesn't exist anymore). In Rotterdam and the south of the Netherlands two of them are preserved.  See www.stoomstichting.nl/Display.php?Subject=8811   

But in our club already two of them ( a 3½" and 5" version) are being built. 

terrier060 ; The Terrier is, the more I read and find on the internet, the more it is getting firmly on the top of my personal list (A1 version). (I still do have to convince my son of it....... a tender engine has his preference). Your offer to help with information would be appreciated. 
I saw a video online of the 7¼" version by the Steam Workshop which compared with a same kind of video my son made of our T3. It would make a nice pair. (  www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mVK4NoLOOw     and   www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjCq92QQHG8 )

I do like the small appearance of the loco and although the motion and cylinders are inside the frame and a bit difficult to grease and maintain, it should be a drivable loco. My 3½" Mona (GER 0-6-2)  and 5" GWR 14xx also have inside motion and are in steam for many years now without much problems. 

dscott ;  I've got the A1 in LBSC livery on gauge 0 by Dapol; indeed a very nice model.  


Kind regards,

Erik-Jan
 

[Cro]

Erik-Jan,

Looking at smaller tank engines how about the BR Std Class 2? Ok larger than the Terrier but still not a huge loco in 7 1/4". Horley models do the drawings and castings but quite pricey. I have a friend who loves them so I have a ton of works drawing for the Class 2 Tender loco.

A few of us are BR lovers here as you may have guessed!

Adam

[Deleted]

Tender loco to keep your son happy - something a little bit different - how about the Bulleid Q1 as per the thread by gingerneer.

Definitely my next loco.

[terrier060]

Hi Erik-Jan
I had a look at the 'Terrier' videos and they looked very encouraging. They seem to steam very easily.
Some of your questions may be answered in my thread '7.25 inch Gauge Terriers'. Bob provided an excellent detailed breakdown of the livery, which is complicated but very beautiful on the 'Terriers'. Stroudley even had the driver's name painted in the cab, which meant that the locomotives were well maintained. Some psychologist!!

I have a more or less complete set of drawings on AutoCAD for the 7.25gauge version of 'Fenchurch' (both A1 and A!X).  I draw them as I go along from Stroudley's originals.  I made my own patterns, as there were non when I started.  I assume there are some now since Don Young brought out his version 'Newport'.
Ed

[erikjan]

terrier060   I had a chat with my son Martin last night (he was over for dinner) and I got a green light (  ); in other words he agrees with building a 7¼" A1 Stroudley Terrier. I convinced him that the driving experience will differ from the Württembergische T3 and that we always can build a 5" gauge tender engine after building the Terrier.  And with two 7¼" locos we can drive together. 

The Terrier can even (I guess, or rather hope) be build in a shorter time than it took to build the T3.  ln Solidworks a comparison was made between the boiler of the T3 and Terrier and only some adjustments to the general overall dimensions were necessary to transform the T3 boiler into a Terrier boiler. This means that I can use all the former plates of the T3 boiler to make the new boiler.  The cab and side tanks are also easier to make (no rivets); the roof however looks more difficult. 
I never thought a would build another loco with inside cylinders and motion, but on 7¼" there is more space to work between the frames. 

So any help is much appreciated and tips or drawings are welcome. The chimney drawings I saw on this forum I've already used for making a 3D Solidworks drawing.


Kind regards,

Erik-Jan

  

[terrier060]

Hi Erik-Jan
Two things I would have done differently if I were building again - I would design the cylinder blocks more like the full-size, so that the smokebox can be bolted to them. This makes the smokebox pipework much simpler. I have not used superheaters, as the full-size never had them. I do not believe that superheaters are that beneficial in a model of our size, but this is a personal view. It is a controversial subject and one has to make up ones own mind. Otherwise I have stuck rigidly to the full-size drawings including the crosshead pumps. Of course my A1X version has injectors. I will use the steam valve to the vacuum pump for a hidden injector on the A1, or make the vacuum pump into the water pump. I think you will find the roof much easier to make than you think - see jma1009, page 7, Boxhill by Martin Evans.

Cylinders are inclined 1 in 11.

You are welcome to any of my drawings and photographs if you so wish.  

Ed

[jma1009]

Hi Erik-Jan,

Excellent choice IMHO.

Now, a word of caution! All the preserved Terriers are slightly different, and you be well advised to pick one particular loco out of the 50 built, and for a certain period and of course this will tie in with your favourite colour and livery (of which there are very many to choose from for Terriers).

Until the early 1900's the Terriers had the Stroudley very elaborate lined out 'ochre' livery and beautiful LBSCR numberplates on the bunker sides.

I was torn between 3 examples to build in 5"g; 'Stepney' as preserved, 'Freshwater' ex 'Newington' in various guises, and long since scrapped 'Tooting'. I always thought it quite funny that a steam loco had the name 'Tooting' (as in whistle Toot!)

The Don Young drawings from Reeves are supported by a detailed construction series in his quarterly magazine LLAS with lots of pics. Don did not obtain any of the LBSCR and SR drawings for the Terriers from the National Railway Museum, York, and in any event they were then uncatalogued and pretty much unavailable. Instead he carefully measured up the preserved example 'Newport' ex gold medal winning 'Brighton' preserved on the Isle of Wight. He might have seen some of the original drawings Havenstreet IOW have, one of which I have a copy of.

When you get underway with your new project I will make a few comments on the Don Young design that might be of help. All very minor points, except the staying of the throatplate - which needs additional staying.

Depending on what type of Terrier and when you can obtain from the NRM all the fullsize drawings relevant, as all survive remarkably, and a new set of drawings for various parts were prepared by the SR when 'Boxhill' was restored for preservation as early as 1946/7.

Don's drawings are for the A1X Terriers as per the Marsh 1911 re-builds in the 1930s on the Isle of Wight (IOW) (new boilers and new different type of smokebox, the IOW locos fitted with front steps and front hand rials to the front of the side tanks, and the IOW fitted Drummond B4 chimney and IOW extended coal bunker). Only later did Don do an A1 Terrier general arrangement drawing with a brief write up in LLAS.

I believe Malcolm High can supply lots of laser cut parts that should speed up the construction.

I have sorted out the Don Young valve gear for 'Newport' in 7.25"g and this will be available to you, as it is to anyone else. Just a few very minor easy alterations (If you buy the laser cut parts from Malcolm High don't buy the expansion links as they have the wrong radius).

Welcome to the wonderful world of the Terriers!

Cheers,

Julian

[terrier060]

Hi Erik-Jan
Here are a couple of examples of the full-size drawings for the A1 version. There are a lot more covering most of the locomotive, with some highly detailed ones of axleboxes, horns pumps etc.

fenchurch032 by Ed Cloutman, on Flickr

fenchurch026 by Ed Cloutman, on Flickr

Ed

[Myford Matt]

Fabulous images – when I consider how much time and trouble it takes me to make a simple (mostly error-free) image with CAD I am astonished at what was achieved when there was virtually no erase/edit functions other than a scalpel. Draughtsmen really were skilled.

The drawings/engravings were beautiful too.

I'm a big fan of CAD and wouldn't be without it, but it is pretty soulless compared to the above.

[dscott]

I have CAD on the older computer but in our sitting room I have an AO drawing board rescued from Work
when they went over to Computers.
Upload immages to it by drawing round the spokes of a driving wheel, chain driven cog, Parts that may
fit etc.
The other great thing is leaving it visable and passing it fresh for several days before the rubber
comes out and improves things. Layout paper is superb for taking tracings ready for the workshop or
seperate sheets.
In my pile of bits were 6 wheels, axleboxes, frames, steps, a part built Gas engine based on the R&B
but half size, and new to the pile a huge hip flask in stainless steel?
The Diesel shunter is slowly taking shape and other drawing problems seem to get solved!
Join the latest fad of colouring and shading and she stands out and shows you all the mistakes!!!

David and Lily.

[smallbrother]

Whilst I admire the skill in putting so much information on one drawing. as a means of communication, i think drawings of that complexity are bloody awful.

I always tried to make every drawing as simple as possible. What you see fits together and makes sense. If the builder can get on with it and has no need for clarification of dimensions or what goes where, then in my view, that is a good drawing.

Pete.

[terrier060]

I agree with Myford Matt - wonderful drawings and done in 1872! Yes they are complicated but one can still understand them given a little time and with other elevations. I started my career in a drawing office - in fact we all use them - I started an apprenticeship in the Burnerd chuck factory in Winchester. All my first drawings for the 'Terrier' were done by hand, though I have since redone them in CAD with the idea of publishing them sometime in ME.

Incidentally I have a lovely A0 drawing board with all the movements if anyone wants it. It is rusting away in my shed, though not too bad at the moment.

I do have an A1 printer but rarely use it as I do what Dave does and print an A4 copy which is easier to manage in the workshop.

Ed

[smallbrother]

Jan 30, 2018 9:12:07 GMT terrier060 said:

I agree with Myford Matt - wonderful drawings and done in 1872! Yes they are complicated but one can still understand them given a little time and with other elevations. I started my career in a drawing office - in fact we all use them - I started an apprenticeship in the Burnerd chuck factory in Winchester. All my first drawings for the 'Terrier' were done by hand, though I have since redone them in CAD with the idea of publishing them sometime in ME.

Incidentally I have a lovely A0 drawing board with all the movements if anyone wants it. It is rusting away in my shed, though not too bad at the moment.

Ed

Hi Ed,

My first civil engineering job in 1975, working for a construction company, entailed "interpreting" complex drawings done by Redpath-Dorman-Long, a subsidiary of British Steel. One of the drawings, the general arrangement, was at least 8 feet long, and covered in lines of the same thickness and obviously no colour in those days. I vowed that my drawings would require no effort to follow. I really can't see the point. My contract documents were done with the same in mind. All as simple as possible and thereby easy to construct correctly at the first attempt.

One of my regrets is getting rid of my schoolboy A2 drawing board. I earned a good bit of money doing raft foundation design with that in my own time. I did pencil drawings but had access to a large copier in work. Very convenient.

Anyway, enough of my rambling, a superb loco and I look forward to seeing progress and eventual running.

Pete.

[terrier060]

Pete - I see you are not far from me - If you want the drawing board it is yours.
Ed