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Post by thefodenman on Dec 20, 2020 16:03:27 GMT
Good afternoon all,
recently I have been considering my next build. Being an X Derby Loco lad I am wondering about a 5inch gauge S&D 2-8-0. I seem to remember there was a thread on here about the Martin Evans 'IVO Peters' design a long time ago. Having dug out the Model Engineer serialisation of the design I note the wheels have 15 spokes. which no one seems to do. There are similarities with the earlier Nigel Gresley 2-8-0 but those wheels have 14 spokes. Just wondering if there is a pattern out there? I have looked at the Blackgates wheel list, the nearest with 15 spokes are either Eveningstar or the BR class 2. Cheers Andy
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Post by delaplume on Dec 21, 2020 12:02:43 GMT
Hi Andy,
Would 1 spoke difference really matter ??..........There just happens to be a set of Nigel Gresley wheels on E-Bay at the moment.......Alternatively you might like to get a pattern made....Maybe someone with 3D printing can help here ??......OK, if they make a plastic pattern you are only going to use it the one time so durability isn't a consideration......There are several small firms out there who can cater for a one-off casting job......thus giving you a "Bespoke" service !!
PS}--- as well as spoke Nos. don't forget to look at the inner rim profile......some may be flat ( GWR style ) or others have an inverted "Vee" type...Also try to get a wheel that doesn't have balance weights cast-in..that way you can add your own and vary the positions etc. according to your needs....
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Post by 92220 on Dec 21, 2020 13:09:55 GMT
Hi Andy.
The B.R. wheels on Evenings Star are inverted Vee rims but the S & D 2-8-0 has flat rims between the spokes. If you can's get exactly the castings you want, you could always use the B.R. castings (if they are the right diameter) and machine the insides of the rims to remove the Vee. If you fit mild steel tyres, you will replace the strength lost in the machining away of the Vee.
Bob.
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Post by delaplume on Dec 21, 2020 22:02:32 GMT
If it helps any I have a surplus set of machined wheel castings for Martin Evans GWR 2-8-0 "Swindon" with 14 spokes, flat inner rim, tread diameter at 4 + 13/16" diam. ..... Axle hole = 11/16" diam.....Pin hole = 3/8" diam, hole-to-hole pitch = 1 + 5/16"... including 4 machined axles to suit....If interested contact me via the PM service for a chat........   |
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dscott
Elder Statesman
Posts: 2,438
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Post by dscott on Dec 22, 2020 3:26:38 GMT
 I had the same problem with Jinty wheels. A superb set nicely machined and even painted. Crank as well. BUT. Wrong number of Spokes. I get a part built Speedy... Sorry 1500 and the same set of wheels??? Traced both purchases back to the Reeves Girls!!!! I did some checking and came up with with only 2 possibilities. And the lovely slim center boss suits both. LB&SCR E1 and E2. Could you see me at the club with a Blue Locomotive with a FACE on it? E1 it is then. David and Lily. They come with flat backs to the spokes, so I spend about a day each doing some magic on them. |
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Gary L
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,208
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Post by Gary L on Dec 22, 2020 16:14:21 GMT
Hi Andy. The B.R. wheels on Evenings Star are inverted Vee rims but the S & D 2-8-0 has flat rims between the spokes. If you can's get exactly the castings you want, you could always use the B.R. castings (if they are the right diameter) and machine the insides of the rims to remove the Vee. If you fit mild steel tyres, you will replace the strength lost in the machining away of the Vee. Bob. During and after Stanier’s time, the LMS used flat rims and Vee rims interchangeably. So assuming the S&Ds used LMS standard size wheels (which you would need to check) there is no need to reject wheels on account of the rim profile. I have just been browsing a book on the Rebuilt Scots, and there are plenty of examples of mixed wheels, even on the same bogie, not to mention the drivers. Spokes are a nightmare. Even if you find the right number, does the crankpin boss coincide with a spoke, or does it fall between two? Then the GWR sometimes webbed the crankpin spokes. And do people count spokes anyway? Some wheel castings have no blending between rim and spokes, which might be correct for certain prototypes, but to my (Swindon-biased) eye looks worse than a small discrepancy in number of spokes. Gary |
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Post by ettingtonliam on Dec 22, 2020 17:24:58 GMT
Well, they wouldn't necessarily be LMS wheels, would they? The first batch were built c 1914 at Derby, the second batch with the larger boilers by Robert Stephenson c 1923. Boilers were later swapped around the 2 batches. I have no idea which type Ivo Peters was based on.
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Post by 92220 on Dec 23, 2020 9:23:10 GMT
Hi Andy. Perhaps this will help. These are photos of S & D 2-8-0 No.88 preserved at Crowborough. The rims are flat and the crank boss is between 2 spokes, same as the Evening Star wheels.  S and D 2-8-0 loco by Robert Shephard, on Flickr  S and D 2-8-0 loco wheel by Robert Shephard[/ur
l], on Flickr
Technical detail specifications of locomotive 53809: Boiler pressure of 53809: 190 superheated lbf/sq.in., Weight of 53809: loco 64.8 tons, tender 26.1 tons, Wheel diameter of 53809: 3' 3½'', 4' 7½",Valve gear of 53809: Walschaerts slide valves, Cylinders (diameter x stroke) of 53809: 21" x 28" (O), Tractive effort of 53809: 35950 lbf., BR Power classification of 53809: Class 7F
The Evening Star wheels would be the right size and spoke to crank boss orientation would also be correct. You would just have to work on flatting the rims. Even the stroke is correct at 28" fullsize. Unfortunately I no longer have the patterns for my wheels.
Bob.
EDIT: I forgot to say, you would need Evening Star wheels without cast balance weights as the shape is different. If the Evening Star model castings are correct, they should not have cast balance weights anyway as full size used steel plates either side of the spokes and part filled with lead. |
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Post by delaplume on Dec 23, 2020 10:30:11 GMT
and here's a video just to whet your appetite for the 5" version...}------ www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQzG42N_QDs -------- Don't be put-off by the prospect of maybe having to flatten those Vee rims.....I'm doing just that thing with my Bear drivers.....The only decent casting available at the time was for the Duchess from Blackgates.......identical except for the inverted "Vee" inner rim.......... In this photo I've gone around the wheel removing the bulk of the material... and have just completed the first "flatting" as it were......I chose the area where the balance weights will go for practice...it seems ok so I'll carry on....  |
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Gary L
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,208
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Post by Gary L on Dec 23, 2020 11:25:47 GMT
Hi Andy. Perhaps this will help. These are photos of S & D 2-8-0 No.88 preserved at Crowborough. The rims are flat and the crank boss is between 2 spokes, same as the Evening Star wheels. S and D 2-8-0 loco by Robert Shephard, on Flickr (photo snipped) Technical detail specifications of locomotive 53809: Boiler pressure of 53809: 190 superheated lbf/sq.in., Weight of 53809: loco 64.8 tons, tender 26.1 tons, Wheel diameter of 53809: 3' 3½'', 4' 7½",Valve gear of 53809: Walschaerts slide valves, Cylinders (diameter x stroke) of 53809: 21" x 28" (O), Tractive effort of 53809: 35950 lbf., BR Power classification of 53809: Class 7F The Evening Star wheels would be the right size and spoke to crank boss orientation would also be correct. You would just have to work on flatting the rims. Even the stroke is correct at 28" fullsize. Unfortunately I no longer have the patterns for my wheels. Bob. EDIT: I forgot to say, you would need Evening Star wheels without cast balance weights as the shape is different. If the Evening Star model castings are correct, they should not have cast balance weights anyway as full size used steel plates either side of the spokes and part filled with lead. Note that the pony truck has acquired Stanier Vee rims. It would be worth studying some old photos to see if any members of the class also had the drivers replaced. The driver diameter is one of the Churchward standards, and the spoke/rim style is very similar, so that is another potential source. Can’t say how the no of spokes compares though Gary |
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Post by delaplume on Dec 23, 2020 12:42:51 GMT
Hi Gary,
Just some thoughts which might help----I mentioned the 28xx type earlier on at}---- 4ft 7.5 ins diam, with flat rims and 14 spokes compared to the 15 required....
Just been down to my workshop and found that the 2-6-0 Kennion's Mogul has pony wheels machined at 3 & 7/16ins dia.............The Peter Riche Star/Castle bogie wheels machined at 3 & 5/16ins dia. which is available from Polly.......both with 10 spokes and flat rims.....
Does anyone do a 5 inch Stanier Mogul or 8F ?? for vee-rims --- or the Black 5 maybe ??
Alan
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Gary L
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,208
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Post by Gary L on Dec 23, 2020 14:56:48 GMT
Hi Gary, Just some thoughts which might help----I mentioned the 28xx type earlier on at}---- 4ft 7.5 ins diam, with flat rims and 14 spokes compared to the 15 required.... Just been down to my workshop and found that the 2-6-0 Kennion's Mogul has pony wheels machined at 3 & 7/16ins dia.............The Peter Riche Star/Castle bogie wheels machined at 3 & 5/16ins dia. which is available from Polly.......both with 10 spokes and flat rims..... Does anyone do a 5 inch Stanier Mogul or 8F ?? for vee-rims --- or the Black 5 maybe ?? Alan Hi Alan I'm no expert to ask; but if the builder can't find the exact casting required, he's either got to get new patterns made (!) or find an existing casting that is least offensive to him (or her). To my personal eye, an error in number of spokes (within reason) is less objectionable than an error of style, like bloated crankpin centres; wrong rims, lack of blending of spokes, or wrong type of balance weights. I don't carry the number of spokes around in my head for any loco, not even the one I'm working on, and even if I did, I find them quite difficult to count! I would rather have the 'style' of the wheel looking correct than get hung up on whether there is a spoke too many or too few. WRT diameter, builders need to be aware that these are purely nominal. A newly-built loco might have wheels of the specified dimension, though there are numerous examples where old wheels were recycled into 'new' locos, (such as the GWR Granges which took wheels and motion from the Moguls.) They may, or may not, have had new tyres fitted. But after a few re-turnings of tyres, the nominal diameter would be reduced significantly anyway (i.e. by inches, not mere fractions). Furthermore, if a model uses out-of-scale flanges (as most do) then it follows, other things being equal, the rim diameter must be reduced to compensate. Other people will see things differently, undoubtedly. Gary |
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don9f
Statesman
Les Warnett 9F, Martin Evans “Jinty”, a part built “Austin 7” and now a part built Springbok B1.
Posts: 960 
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Post by don9f on Dec 23, 2020 15:58:43 GMT
I agree fully with the above point of view. Until a few days ago, due to this thread, I had no idea how many spokes a 7F has, or what profile its rims have and this despite a long association with one of the preserved locos some years ago. My own 5 inch “Jinty”, recently completed, has one spoke too few, no balance weights at all and no one has noticed, or said anything so far!
Cheers Don
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Post by delaplume on Dec 23, 2020 16:20:56 GMT
Hello Gary,
Yes, agree entirely with that..( But as a fellow GWR enthusiast, I would---wouldn't I....LoL !!)....the key word of course is "Nominal".... as long as Andy isn't too "hung-up" on absolute micronic accuracy re}-- diameter( Sorry Roger--- just a turn of phrase in this case ) then he can use a range of sizes from minus 1/16" to plus 1/16" .....I've had to do just that very thing when designing my Great Bear...If I use GL5 profiles the front and centre drivers will touch, as would the centre and rear drivers---the rear drivers having been re-positioned by Churchward from his Star dimentions upon which The Bear is based...
I did suggest earlier that maybe a 3D produced, single use plastic pattern would be the answer.....There are one or two small foundries who could do a cast of say 10 wheels ( 2 for spare and maybe future pattern use if a demand arises ?? )...
I rather like the look of the S&DJR 2-8-0...with that small Midland tender and open cab it should be an easy model to fire/drive...much like the 28xx that I have.. and be a very useful club loco for passenger hauling....I hope Andy continues with this..
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Post by drumkilbo on Dec 23, 2020 17:01:34 GMT
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Post by ettingtonliam on Dec 23, 2020 18:53:53 GMT
Ah ha. Can you remember where the wheel castings came from? Have they got 15 spokes?
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Post by delaplume on Dec 23, 2020 21:34:31 GMT
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Post by delaplume on Dec 23, 2020 21:45:33 GMT
Perhaps you two could help each other to get a pair of locos built during this Virus and lockdown sessions ?? Stanier's first loco design for the LMS was the 2-6-0 that famously emerged with a GWR-type of safety valve bonnet------ more importantly for this thread it also was coupled to the Midland small tender......... Only one loco survives ie}--- No.2968 at the SVR including the small / thinner tender....You can see the difference when standing on the footplate... Bewdly, 2012  |
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Post by nick952 on Dec 23, 2020 23:43:52 GMT
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Post by jma1009 on Dec 24, 2020 2:17:17 GMT
Somewhat inadvertently I have become involved in the SDRT this year with their problems with the WSR plc board.
I very much like the S&D 2-8-0 type, and I have been very tempted to do a 3.5"g version of SDRT owned '88', now on the Watercress Line. Lovely loco and much to recommend.
Cheers,
Julian
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