don9f
Statesman
Les Warnett 9F, Martin Evans “Jinty”, a part built “Austin 7” and now a part built Springbok B1.
Posts: 960
|
Post by don9f on Sept 13, 2017 17:53:32 GMT
Hi, I don't see a number "5" on your drawing, which should be the centre of the circle. This centre should be at where perpendiculars from half way 0 to 3 & from half way 0 to 4 meet and it looks like it's not on a perpendicular from half way 0 to 4, thus the circle is too big a diameter? (Point 4 should lie on the circle).
I'm no expert on this at all but can see you have bisected the angle between lines 0 to 3 & 0 to 4 which has put the centre of the circle in the wrong place....i.e. too low down.
Hopefully this helps....
Regards Don
|
|
don9f
Statesman
Les Warnett 9F, Martin Evans “Jinty”, a part built “Austin 7” and now a part built Springbok B1.
Posts: 960
|
Post by don9f on Sept 12, 2017 15:09:23 GMT
Hi, following on from some posts a couple of days ago and as it might be of particular interest, I've posted this here, instead of on my own post re the overhaul. The photos show the Gordon Chiverton injectors on my loco. The outer, or "live steam" injector was the one most used and was in pretty heavy service for 7 years. Running at its home track near Grimsby would have either been with collected rain water or when that ran out, softened water from a certain nearby Railway Depot, which had a large softening plant! I never experienced any problems with it and it was never cleaned during that time and this is the first time it has ever been dismantled for a look inside. This was not without difficulty and I had to apply heat to the threaded parts to be able to unscrew them! I still haven't figured out how to remove the cones, but as they look pretty clean anyway, I'm loathe to dismantle it any further. It's obvious that there are two overflow valves....see the small flat discs, communicating to the scale overflow outlet flange. Although I haven't dismantled the dummy "exhaust steam" injector, I suspect it would be similar inside, as they were supplied as a pair by Gordon 30 years ago. In service this one was less used, as it's controls weren't quite so easy to access and it used to dribble a bit. Max boiler pressure was 80psi. The overflow outlet fittings were not supplied by Gordon and were made by me....there are no valves inside, as there would be on real ones. Cheers Don
|
|
don9f
Statesman
Les Warnett 9F, Martin Evans “Jinty”, a part built “Austin 7” and now a part built Springbok B1.
Posts: 960
|
Post by don9f on Sept 8, 2017 22:31:34 GMT
Right you're on, but I'm afraid it will be after the middle of next week....stepdaughter's wedding on Monday !
Cheers Don
|
|
don9f
Statesman
Les Warnett 9F, Martin Evans “Jinty”, a part built “Austin 7” and now a part built Springbok B1.
Posts: 960
|
Post by don9f on Sept 8, 2017 22:07:43 GMT
On my 9F I Have Gordon Chiverton injectors that are a close resemblance to the real thing and the pipe flanges are held to the injector flanges by 12BA hex screws, screwed into tapped holes in the injectors....works well for me. Its probably a good thing that your chosen prototype isn't fitted with an exhaust steam injector.....an order of magnitude more complicated ! The one on mine is "scale outline", but is just a live steam injector inside. Cheers Don Hi Don, That's interesting, I wonder how the non-return valve is done on that design? I suppose it's not too bad having small screws so long as they aren't on and off too often. I'd probably use an 'O' ring for the flange seal. I'm still a long way from deciding what to do with this whole arrangement. I was intending dismantling my injectors as part of the overhaul of the 9 (never seen inside them!), may bring that operation forward now it's become of interest. Time at the moment is being spent on making new water gauges, inspired by yours, although mine are "fabricated" which has been quite fiddly. Adam....that's of great interest, look forward to seeing those. On 92214, there was no realistic way to obtain a Class K exhaust injector, so it had two live steam ones (11xs I think). Cheers Don
|
|
don9f
Statesman
Les Warnett 9F, Martin Evans “Jinty”, a part built “Austin 7” and now a part built Springbok B1.
Posts: 960
|
Post by don9f on Sept 8, 2017 21:40:06 GMT
On my 9F I Have Gordon Chiverton injectors that are a close resemblance to the real thing and the pipe flanges are held to the injector flanges by 12BA hex screws, screwed into tapped holes in the injectors....works well for me. Its probably a good thing that your chosen prototype isn't fitted with an exhaust steam injector.....an order of magnitude more complicated ! The one on mine is "scale outline", but is just a live steam injector inside.
Cheers Don
|
|
don9f
Statesman
Les Warnett 9F, Martin Evans “Jinty”, a part built “Austin 7” and now a part built Springbok B1.
Posts: 960
|
Post by don9f on Sept 8, 2017 20:53:41 GMT
Hi Roger if you haven't seen this, it is a drawing of the GWR/BR Std injector from the "Black Book". Cheers Don
|
|
don9f
Statesman
Les Warnett 9F, Martin Evans “Jinty”, a part built “Austin 7” and now a part built Springbok B1.
Posts: 960
|
Post by don9f on Sept 7, 2017 21:12:59 GMT
Hi Dan, I don't think so as I seem to think it had a six or even eight cylinder engine that didn't look like that one you linked to. I thought it was 5" but it could have been 3 1/2".....it was back in the 80's!
Cheers Don
|
|
don9f
Statesman
Les Warnett 9F, Martin Evans “Jinty”, a part built “Austin 7” and now a part built Springbok B1.
Posts: 960
|
Post by don9f on Sept 7, 2017 20:41:45 GMT
Hi Roger, I don't claim to be following your line of thought completely at the moment but if it helps, those overflow outlet fittings at the bottom of those injectors (connecting into the black steel pipes) contain a sprung loaded flat non return valve. You can see a small weight hanging on one by a chain, which we similarly used to do when back filling the boiler via the injector overflow pipe (fitted with a suitable connector for a water hose), to open said non return valve to allow the water to flow "the wrong way". I would not have thought you would have a problem with water flow, the water feeds to the injectors could be scale dia, but thin walled pipe to maximise the area.
Cheers Don
|
|
don9f
Statesman
Les Warnett 9F, Martin Evans “Jinty”, a part built “Austin 7” and now a part built Springbok B1.
Posts: 960
|
Post by don9f on Sept 7, 2017 19:53:40 GMT
I remember years ago, seeing a 5" gauge model of a BR Western Region "Hymek" loco, with a working miniature engine at the Derby MES.....but can't recall just how the drive was transmitted to the wheels. I always fancied building a scale version of a BR Class 47, with working engine, generator & control system etc. but it will probably never happen. I can imagine it would be much more fun to drive than a simple battery powered one and can also imagine how complicated it would be and the challenges there would be in getting it all to work! At my society there are a few battery locos and as others have said, the average family coming for a ride, don't really mind what's pulling the train but fortunately, steam still reigns supreme most of the time.
Cheers Don
|
|
don9f
Statesman
Les Warnett 9F, Martin Evans “Jinty”, a part built “Austin 7” and now a part built Springbok B1.
Posts: 960
|
Post by don9f on Aug 31, 2017 22:02:13 GMT
I was on their website ok, just a few minutes before your first post....
Cheers Don
|
|
don9f
Statesman
Les Warnett 9F, Martin Evans “Jinty”, a part built “Austin 7” and now a part built Springbok B1.
Posts: 960
|
Post by don9f on Aug 18, 2017 16:00:07 GMT
Hi Roger, I have no experience of Zintec on models, but as well as edges, there will be lots of holes/cutouts etc. all exposing other raw edges....however they could probably be protected ok with careful painting. We used 16g Zintec during the restoration of 92214 which stayed in very good condition during the seven years we operated it. It's all down to the quality of that first coat of Mordant Solution.
On my model 9F, I used 24g brass sheet (approx 0.56mm) for all firebox & barrel cladding, which as you know is not the best material to paint. Bear in mind this was nearly 30 years ago, but I followed advice at the time and after thoroughly cleaning and degreasing the surface, warmed it up a bit with a heat gun, then gave it its first coat of "Car Plan" standard grey primer (aerosol from Halfords). Subsequent coats were their Satin Black (3 coats I think) and acknowledging that it has been in storage for many years, the paintwork is still in pretty good nick today! It's always difficult to keep paint on the edges, or where your hands/fingers constantly touch the same place whilst driving. Some members of my club use edge protection here & there, especially on vulnerable edges of tender tops/cab roofs etc. I'm sure there are better products available today but I haven't looked into that aspect yet.
As always, loving reading about your attention to details!
Cheers Don
|
|
don9f
Statesman
Les Warnett 9F, Martin Evans “Jinty”, a part built “Austin 7” and now a part built Springbok B1.
Posts: 960
|
Post by don9f on Aug 15, 2017 19:49:06 GMT
Hi all, I know there hasn't been any update for about 5 weeks now, but as I still haven't received the outstanding casting from SW (over 10 weeks now), I need to finish that one cylinder drain cock and it's pipework, before I can set the thing right way up and hopefully not need it upside down any more! I have refitted the front cylinder & valve covers (see earlier photos) and touched up the cylinder and surrounding paintwork where necessary. I've also finished repinning the combination lever joints, where a very small amount of wear was evident, plus fitted new o rings to the brake cylinders, so hopefully apart from the errant casting, the "bottom end" is about done. I have now had chance to present the boiler for inspection by two of the inspectors at the railway I'm a member of, and demonstrate the minute leak that occurs under cold pressure, to one of the superheater flues at the smokebox end. As you may remember, the boiler is stripped of smokebox and all cladding, as it is now over 21 years since the last formal hydraulic test in March 1996, when the leak was spotted, but in the dark recesses of the long, black smokebox interior, its source couldn't really be determined. We all agreed that there was no merit in attempting a silver soldered repair and that a steaming or two with a suitable chemical agent (egg white!), might do the trick. That is where I'm now up to and the boiler is cooling down after a couple of steaming, as I write this. Next step will be a further cold hydraulic, to see if there's any change. There is no evidence that any leak has occurred under steam....now or in the past, so another option was "do nothing" as it were! The hydraulic in 1996 was only the second since the boiler was completed in 1988, so for all we know, it could have been like it for the previous 4 years or so. Whilst waiting for the opportunity to carry out the aforementioned steamings, I had read the very interesting thread regarding "Gordon Smith" safety valves and promptly decided to make some new ones for 92167, to ensure compliance with any future "Accumulation Test" etc. Although the original valves I had made worked ok, they were only of "simple" type and I had no idea whether they would comply or not....in any event, I wanted to make some a bit more scale-like. The problem here is that the Les Warnett boiler has the safety valve bush mounting flanges on the outside of the barrel, whereas the full size has them (plus clacks & manifold) on the inside....no doubt to keep the protruding valves etc. within the loading gauge for the 9F with its high pitched boiler. An added problem is that the boiler bushes are only threaded 1/2" x 26tpi.....the significance of which will become apparent shortly. All this means that it is not really possible to make safety valves exactly to scale, so some sacrifice has to be made. Whilst perusing the Polly Models catalogue as recommended in the other thread,, I found that they supply the drawing and springs for "Extra short" 5" gauge Britannia valves, with a 7/32" seat, so I ordered some. Unfortunately when they arrived I found that this particular design requires a minimum mounting thread diameter of say 5/8" x 26tpi, allowing the valve seat to be down inside the threaded part. With only 1/2" dia thread, plus the bore of the body above the seat at 13/32", there just isn't enough wall thickness left to be realistically safe. I used the basic valve dimensions though and was able to make some valves that had the seat completely above the lower threaded part and still looked better than the old ones. As stated, these were 7/32" seat valves, so I also made some with a 3/16" seat, using dimensions from another design, included in the original EIM articles (thanks to them being posted on the other thread) and will assess their suitability when the opportunity arises.....they are even closer to scale, although still a bit too tall. For both of these pairs of valves, I selected slightly different springs, using Gordon's excellent selection guide, as I only intend an operating pressure of 80psi, rather than the designed SWP of 100psi. Finally, thanks to Roger's epic thread which I have now read in its entirety (some late nights there I can tell you!), I tried out some of his recommended pcb drills and I must say, I'm impressed! I used one (ok I broke one but that was my fault) to drill the small bolt holes round the top flange of the BR Std type safety valve, as seen in the photo below. I'm just waiting for some M1.2 hex screws for them.....another first for me, metric screws on a British steam loco 😜.....Ok, I believe they have a 2mm A/F hexagon, which is just right for scale 1/2" whitworth bolts? Really, I'm not averse to metric threads etc. at all......worked with them for long enough on full size rail vehicles, so apologies to anyone regarding the imperial dimensions mentioned above. Cheers Don This is one of the 3/16" valves, waiting for those M1.2 hex screws (and a 7/32" ball....that in the photo is 1/4"). This is the boiler in steam...the cold leak was occurring near the top of the LH flue as we look to the tubeplate. And here it is, blowing off both valves at 80psi!....not a full accumulation test, as I can only have a moderate flame at the burner, with this crude setup, before it "snuffs out".
|
|
don9f
Statesman
Les Warnett 9F, Martin Evans “Jinty”, a part built “Austin 7” and now a part built Springbok B1.
Posts: 960
|
Post by don9f on Aug 12, 2017 20:23:03 GMT
Great to hear these suggestions....tried googling tablet exchange gear etc. and a site about the P2s said "the equipment operated through an elliptical hole, cut into the left hand tender side sheet", so definitely a possible explanation in your case. From that second photo, you can see at least one and maybe both of those handles on the fireman's side linked to that brand new looking injector via universal joints (to cater for the angularity of the operating rods) and one of them is now obvious in the first photo!
Cheers Don
|
|
don9f
Statesman
Les Warnett 9F, Martin Evans “Jinty”, a part built “Austin 7” and now a part built Springbok B1.
Posts: 960
|
Post by don9f on Aug 11, 2017 20:14:35 GMT
Ok, all interesting stuff.....I too like to copy the full size where I can.
Any chance of a photo of this mysterious hole?
Cheers Don
|
|
don9f
Statesman
Les Warnett 9F, Martin Evans “Jinty”, a part built “Austin 7” and now a part built Springbok B1.
Posts: 960
|
Post by don9f on Aug 10, 2017 22:48:08 GMT
Hi Pete, firstly I don't really know the answers here, but a few thoughts/observations....
Assuming the engine pictured was right hand drive at the time, surely the cylinder drain cock lever would have been on the driver's side? If so, that lever working against the cabside is a bit of a mystery at the moment. The other two levers may be the injector water valves. Damper controls would normally be capable of holding the dampers in some fixed position....e.g. either by notches in operating levers, or as on the later BR Standards by screw controls....so maybe that one on the cabside is for the damper(s)? The finish on the cabside looks very good, so such bracketry might have been secured by flush riveting and filler applied to hide any witness. This might not be done later on under more "austere" conditions? Presumably at some point, the engine was converted to left hand drive, as obviously 4472 is today. Redundant rivets might have got removed and bits rivetted on elsewhere. If I'm looking in the right place, is the large hole you refer to in the first post, for access to a washout plug, or mud hole door in the rear corner of the firebox? Just had a quick look at some online pics and looks like it to me.
I look forward to finding the answers to this one!
Cheers Don
|
|
don9f
Statesman
Les Warnett 9F, Martin Evans “Jinty”, a part built “Austin 7” and now a part built Springbok B1.
Posts: 960
|
Post by don9f on Aug 7, 2017 21:03:51 GMT
Cheers for that.....my method in those days would have been cut it big and trim it to fit!
Cheers Don
|
|
don9f
Statesman
Les Warnett 9F, Martin Evans “Jinty”, a part built “Austin 7” and now a part built Springbok B1.
Posts: 960
|
Post by don9f on Aug 7, 2017 20:50:54 GMT
Mike mentioned the full size sheet thickness earlier and on 92214 (built at Swindon), the drawing called for 16 gauge (about 6 thou in 5") but in sheet sizes big enough to do each section of the barrel in two halves. We did each section in thirds due to what was available and added the extra joint but keeping the original joint at the top. As others have pointed out, what exists in preservation today isn't always exactly how it was when they were built, but I know Roger, you are modelling your loco on how 1501 looks "today". Marking out and cutting the sheets to form parts of a cone, so the edges all line up neatly etc. is a skill we were lucky to have, courtesy of two lads who were coach builders working at the time for Nottingham City Transport....I wouldn't have known how to do it!
Cheers Don
|
|
don9f
Statesman
Les Warnett 9F, Martin Evans “Jinty”, a part built “Austin 7” and now a part built Springbok B1.
Posts: 960
|
Post by don9f on Aug 7, 2017 9:34:03 GMT
Hi again, this photo shows crinolines, their attachment to bosses welded to firebox sides, their self supporting (and not physically attached) framework around the barrel with standoffs from folded "legs", insulation material fitting over the numerous protuberances, midfeather doors, mudhole door openings at low level etc. etc. Obviously my model crinolines were somewhat simplified. As mentioned by others, I also made the barrel cladding in one piece for ease/stability. Differential expansion when in steam will cause slight movements here & there. Cheers Don
|
|
don9f
Statesman
Les Warnett 9F, Martin Evans “Jinty”, a part built “Austin 7” and now a part built Springbok B1.
Posts: 960
|
Post by don9f on Aug 6, 2017 23:13:51 GMT
Hi Roger, on my 9F boiler & firebox, I built up the "crinolines" as they are called, from hoops & strips of 1/4" x 1/16" brass strip....positioned much as they are on the full size. Lagging material is "Kaowool" in various thicknesses to suit, which the crinolines also help to keep in place. Then hex screws can be used to hold the cladding (cleading) sheets on in scale positions etc. Incidentally, love the covers you have just made and for interest, underneath them would be the "midfeather doors"....usually elliptical in shape, that can be removed to aid cleaning & inspection of the firebox internal surfaces, stays etc. I think the term midfeather means "water legs" when relating to a firebox. Other similar doors on boilers are just known as muddoors, or mudhole doors....e.g. fitted in various positions like just above the foundation ring, probably without the covers as they were much less visible. They are held in place by a "bridgepiece" with nut/washer, hence the covers to hide them, as in your loco (although 9Fs didn't have such refinements). You had to be very careful with the midfeathers when fitting or removing them, not to drop them inside, as if you did, you needed someone with very long thin arms to reach down to get them back! Haven't just got any pictures to hand at the moment.
Cheers Don
|
|
don9f
Statesman
Les Warnett 9F, Martin Evans “Jinty”, a part built “Austin 7” and now a part built Springbok B1.
Posts: 960
|
Post by don9f on Jul 26, 2017 20:34:36 GMT
Hi Roger, I first started reading your thread when you were making the lubricator and at first, didn't understand a lot of the terms and methods you were using. As things progressed, I was soon "hooked" and went back to page 1 and have spent about 2 weeks reading everything up to the present time....over 350 pages! I've not read so much for years and found the whole thing absolutely fascinating....what an incredible journey you have taken us all on! It's been so engrossing, I haven't watched telly for ages, nor have I done much to my own ongoing project, but will get back onto it now. You may be aware that I'm overhauling my near 30 year old 9F that was built almost exclusively with a Myford Super 7, milling being done using its vertical slide....a world apart from yours today.
I wish I had been following your build from the start and would have enjoyed contributing where I could. I particularly enjoyed the boiler work and wish you every success from here on.
Cheers Don
|
|