Don Young's Black 5

[drjohn]

A question for Mike (44767) or Sapper -

I've been poring over the plans for the loco, and on the mainframes, the spacing between the driven and rear coupled wheel is stated as 8 1/2" (8 7/8" on late engines).

Following that through, the plans for the coupling rods are distinctly for the 8 1/2" spacing, but then comes the question of the boiler, the dimensions of which I have yet to ratify with the frames.

I am assuming the extra 3/8" was for the longer firebox???

If so, as I will not be building the boiler, but having it built elsewhere, is it recommended to stick to the 8 1/2" spacing or what.

Advice would be much appreciated as I will shortly be cutting out the mainframes while I'm in sheet-metal mode.

DJ

[maninshed]

Hi Dr John.
Looking at my all you need to know about Black Fives book. The reason for the change in centres between the driving and trailing coupled wheel from 8ft centres to 8' 4" centres was the use of cannon type roller bearings, because the axles box horn assembly was that much bigger (because of the roller element bearing) it fouled the throat plate on the boiler, so they simply increased the wheel base by 4". Also there were a couple of different types of boiler used on the black fives, the early engines had vertical throat plates, the later boilers had inclined throat plates. The book states that the change was made without changes to boiler lengths, the smokebox was made 4" longer. Looking at photo's of smoke boxes it looks like on the early engines the smokebox rear finished in line with the rear of the smokebox saddle. On the later engines the smokebox finnished 4" to the right of the rear of the saddle. Looks like all the engines fitted with roller element bearings were all fitted with the later boilers with tapered throat plates. Hope this is of help.

[abby]

maninshed , a fellow shed-dweller says that's a valuable explanation , and could you give details of the book you mentioned ? can't find it on-line.

[baggo]

Hi Abby,

This may be the book Manisinshed refers to, but have a look at the Locomotive Profiles series by Wild Swan Publications. They do some very detailed books on certain locos. There's a couple on the Class 5s depending on the particular version you are interested in. Full of detailed drawings and photos.

John

[simonwass]

[e-mail]
Try these, you'll want LMS loco profile No. 5 & 6 (depending on the loco number you plan to model). The photographic supplements are also useful.
The Midland Railway Society usually charges 10% for postage, it may be cheaper than the usual flat fee of £4.95 typically charged by usual book sellers, the MRS also get a useful cut of the sale.

Number 5
The mixed traffic class 5s. Part 1. Nos. 5000-5224.

Photographic Supplement to Number 5.
Pictorial Supplement to LMS locomotive profile. No. 5.

Number 6
The mixed traffic class 5s. Part 2. Walschaerts and Stephenson valve gear engines from the 5225-5499 and 4658-4999 series.

Photographic Supplement to Number 6
Pictorial Supplement to LMS locomotive profile. No. 6.

Number 7
Mixed traffic class 5s: Caprotti valve gear engines and class summary.

[44767]

OK, I'll try to clear this up. Don Young's chassis drawing is for the straight throatplate boiler. But the boiler he has drawing is essentially the sloping throat plate boiler.

I have copies of the works drawings for both types (both appearing in the books already listed from Swann Publishing) and have had them scaled as close as I could to 5" gauge. The dimensions which affect the outline are:-

Sloping throat plate:

front of barrel to crest at front of firebox 14 1/2"
fire box length at top of back plate 10 1/2"
from centreline of chimney to backhead at top 28"
centreline chimney to first boiler band 3 1/2"

Straight Throatplate:

front of barrel to crest at front of firebox 15 1/4"
fire box length at top of back plate 9 1/4"
from centreline of chimney to backhead at top 27"
centreline chimney to first boiler band 3"

I started my model before I decided to do 44767 so didn't add the extra length to the chassis. Also the suspension drawing by Don is for the older chassis so mine really is a hybrid! On top of that my boiler is only the 9 1/2" on the fire box so will end up about right in the cab I think. Also the difference in overall lengths is in the smoke box/ barrel joint.

Any more queries- just ask.

[maninshed]

Hi Guys.
Sorry I should have perhaps mentioned the book I have it's 'The Stanier 4-6-0s of the LMS' by JWP Rowledge and Brian Reed (ISBN 0 7153 7385 5) it also covers the Jubilee's and standard class 5's, it was printed in 1977. Quiet a good book actually with quite afew sections taken from works drawings including a detailed drawing side on GA of the first black fives. Spose it's a pity I'm not building one.

[drjohn]

Many thanks for all the replies.

Mike, I've printed out what you wrote and will go over it on the plans tomorrow and try to assimilate what you have said. And I'm sure there will be plenty more questions as I struggle along with this project.

DJ

[44767]

So, John, which Black 5 are you building?

[drjohn]

Ha! Sacrilege! An imaginary one numbered 41967 ("for" 1967 - a particularly significant year in my life) and it will be called "The Bantayanian" for reasons I explained in the Simplex (called Bantayanian 2) thread.

DJ

[drumkilbo]

Bantayanian almost sounds like a "Jubilee" name, DJ.
Hoo no' build wan o' them ?

Ian.

[44767]

John,

If you're building an imaginary loco I suggest just using the frames and boiler as drawn. Although I think it would be nice to build the suspension as per the later engines. You could use the details from Doug Hewson's Class 4 4-6-0 tender loco as its suspension came directly from the later Black 5's.

Regards the dimensions for the boiler above, any of these could be changed a little as the cleading will cover all of this. The drawings I have showing the boilers have differing details for the joints in the boiler barrels etc.

Having said all that this model boiler "steams like a witch". Here, to comply with the current boiler codes, I have had to increase the diameter of the stays around the firebox and use stays on the roof as we're not allowed the girder plate stays. You'd probably noticed that on the photos earlier in this thread.

[drjohn]

Hi Mike

OK Thanks for all that. I shall just stick with the plans as standard. The extra 3/8" would involve an awful lot of changed measurements.

More silly questions will follow I'm sure!

DJ

And Ian (drumkilbo), being a canny Scot like yersel' I already had the plans and some castings for the Black 5, but nowt for a jubilee

[steam4ian]

G'day Dr John

I read your earlier thread about 8BA and 2mm screws. I know that Jaycar in Oz has them and that they have a mail order service. If stuck give me a PM. However it should be easy to find a source in Malaysia.

Regards
Ian

[drjohn]

Hi Ian

I managed to get a load of 2mm and 2.5mm nuts and bolts today (no 2.2mm [8ba!]), so I'm fine. Thanks for the offer though. As I have settled to metric threads, I now have taps and dies for the sizes I need and will use Weldsol's slitting saws in pairs if necessary to resize the nuts to make them look more scale.

Interestingly, having just built the Simplex, the bits and bobs on this Black 5 seem somewhat flimsy and fiddly in comparison - 1/4" square axle-box keeps as opposed to 3/16 x 1" on Simplex , but then again this is a scaled down version of a real loco, not a made up jobby - where I used to think of Simplex as "complex", I now am beginning to understand "complex"! ;D

DJ

[dickdastardly40]

There is a beautiful looking 7 1/4" Black 5 for sale by Station Road Steam at present, doesn't say in the description who the model design is by:

www.stationroadsteam.co.uk/stock%20pages/3765/index.htm

No affiliation, just thought folk may like to look at the pictures.

[drjohn]

Really nice, Dick - does it not inspire you to build one?

But why didn't he put any rivets on the front buffer beam - that looks sad!

DJ

[Richardw]

Mar 18, 2009 14:30:10 GMT drjohn said:

But why didn't he put any rivets on the front buffer beam - that looks sad!
DJ

It may well be correct for the prototype though, I have a photo of another memebr of the same batch and it definitely doesn't have any visible rivet heads on the buffer beam.

[sapper]

Sorry I am a bit late on picking up on this thread Manished is quite correct the smokebox length was increased as well as the frames. As a result of the increased weight of the cannon axleboxes the springing was also beefed up. Doug Hewson stocks the correct castings for the hangers and pads for his class 4 tank.
Sapper

[drjohn]

Hi, Sapper, thanks for that , but at Doug's price of 77 quid for 12 spring hangers, never mind pads, I'll fabricate.

DJ