44767
Statesman
Posts: 539
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Post by 44767 on Apr 15, 2013 9:29:08 GMT
gwr7800, Yes I know Fred well. It was seeing his loco that made me decide to do the Stephenson link version. He is now involved in the building of a communication satelaite designed and built by volunteers. It'll be New Zealand's first. I milled the trays which stack together to form the body. See it here www.kiwisat.org.nz/ Sorry, a bit off topic but interesting. Mike |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2013 22:39:07 GMT
Regarding omissions, I notice already that the boiler drawing has no mention of the alternative top feed locations (dimensions missing), because presumably DY knew all were aware of the various LMS Derby changes It's curious that Don chose to show the Ivatt boiler with forward top feed on his drawings, because all the other features of his design point to an engine from the 1936/37 Armstrong Whitworth batch, i.e. 5225 to 5451. Earlier engines had domeless boilers with shorter firebox and vertical throatplate; later engines had all sorts of detail differences - ball bearings on the return crank, fluted coupling rods, fixed leading windows on the cabsides, snap riveted buffer beams, tension in lieu of compression spring hangers, shorter connecting rods/longer piston rods - depending on the batch. The final batches, including the Caprotti and Stephenson engines, even had a longer coupled wheelbase! Don's arrangement drawing (sheet 1) is a mis-match of these features, and his introductory notes are frankly laughable, e.g. "..they began, in 1934, as relative failures". Ahem, they were a roaring success straight off the drawing board - it was the Jubilees that were an initial disappointment. "..did sterling work until the end of steam on BR, notably in the twilight months on the Southern region between Waterloo and Bournemouth". Well, the Stanier 5s did reach Bournemouth on inter-regional trains, but the route to Waterloo was the domain of the BR standard 5s. These must have been aberrations on Don's part, for he surely knew his engines better than this! |
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44767
Statesman
Posts: 539
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Post by 44767 on Sept 2, 2013 5:59:14 GMT
I've just bought a new set of drawings from Reeves for my Black 5. I thought it was time to get back to it but all the originals had degraded so badly that I couldn't read them. Well it has been 30 odd years since I started it!
Mike
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Post by Rex Hanman on Sept 2, 2013 10:01:45 GMT
If there were any errors on your original drawings I bet they are still there on the new ones!  Don't worry about the time lag, it took me 27 years to build my Rob Roy, so I'm allowing my self 208 years for the prairie! |
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MAX
Member
In planning stages of Don young's Black 5
Posts: 6 
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Post by MAX on Dec 14, 2016 5:14:40 GMT
Is anyone still interested in this thread? I recently started a don young black 5 build and am in need of some help.
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Lisa
Statesman
Posts: 806 
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Post by Lisa on Dec 14, 2016 6:31:41 GMT
No doubt, if you ask a question someone'll be able to answer; or at the least point you toward someone/somewhere that can. Either ask on this thread, or start your own build thread so we can follow your progress, which ever you'd rather.
Welcome to the forum!
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oldnorton
Statesman
5" gauge LMS enthusiast
Posts: 726
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Post by oldnorton on Dec 14, 2016 11:11:08 GMT
Hi Max
For my DY B5 I have the frames on wheels, plus other items done, and am about to restart daily work over the winter. Chat away and I will happily join in - whether it is helpful or not is another matter!
Norm
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44767
Statesman
Posts: 539
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Post by 44767 on Dec 16, 2016 11:59:46 GMT
I'm still here. Not done much on the Black 5 recently but still interested in what others are doing.
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dscott
Elder Statesman
Posts: 2,440
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Post by dscott on Dec 21, 2016 0:25:17 GMT
She is a future project but if a suitable piece of metal comes my way we will do a bit!
September saw us on the Great Central the 3rd when 50 years to the day they ran the last trains.
The last ever until preservation was the parcels behind an 8F. The recreated one was delayed
giving us a superb invite to enjoy the footplate for a good 5 minutes.
However earlier, resting from a mammoth race through hundreds of Class 2 photos I turned
and did at least 50 of their Black five down to her frames!!
Got home to discover 560 for the total photos for the weekend!!
Bet I have still missed a detail??
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MAX
Member
In planning stages of Don young's Black 5
Posts: 6
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Post by MAX on Dec 26, 2016 19:53:59 GMT
Hi guys,
Thanks for replying!
First off, i bought a mash up of bits and pieces of castings from Kijiji, thinking that i was getting a 3.5" gauge "Greene King" by Martin Evans. Turns out that i actually received a half-assed black 5!
It came with the set of drawings, however it is missing Dwg no 1, 7, and 9! Reeves doesn't sell them seperately! Does anybody have them scanned in? In return i can provide my CAD drawings for all the frames. They are ready to go in .DXF format so that you can send the file to a local machine shop and get them cut out on the water jet. Speaking of the frames, Dwg no 5 shows two different measurements between the rear two drive wheels. (8-1/2" and 8-7/8") its only the difference of 1/8" but i am wondering which measurement to use. So many questions! i look forward to the replies, Thanks guys!
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weary
Part of the e-furniture
Posts: 302
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Post by weary on Dec 26, 2016 20:46:24 GMT
As regards individual drawing sheets. If you cannot source your missing sheets elsewhere....
My experience with Reeves is that where they only list the drawings as available as a complete set if you email them (Sales@ajreeves.com) and ask for individual drawings they will add the individual drawings to the items for sale allowing you to purchase the missing sheets. They have done this for me the same day as receiving my email enquiry. I don't know, but suspect, that they will not be open now until the New Year.
Regards,
Phil
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Post by niels on Dec 26, 2016 20:50:28 GMT
September saw us on the Great Central the 3rd when 50 years to the day they ran the last trains. The last ever until preservation was the parcels behind an 8F. The recreated one was delayed giving us a superb invite to enjoy the footplate for a good 5 minutes. All railways close sooner or later ,but why did BR close the GCR first? Big loading gauge and small gradients and big radius curves? I have the LTCRolt book. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2016 22:54:13 GMT
Hi guys, Thanks for replying! First off, i bought a mash up of bits and pieces of castings from Kijiji, thinking that i was getting a 3.5" gauge "Greene King" by Martin Evans. Turns out that i actually received a half-assed black 5! It came with the set of drawings, however it is missing Dwg no 1, 7, and 9! Reeves doesn't sell them seperately! Does anybody have them scanned in? In return i can provide my CAD drawings for all the frames. They are ready to go in .DXF format so that you can send the file to a local machine shop and get them cut out on the water jet. Speaking of the frames, Dwg no 5 shows two different measurements between the rear two drive wheels. (8-1/2" and 8-7/8") its only the difference of 1/8" but i am wondering which measurement to use. So many questions! i look forward to the replies, Thanks guys! Hi maxsimons, If you ring Reeves (or e-mail them) I am pretty sure they will supply individual drawings. I have purchased single sheets in the past off them, although I must admit not recently. Paul |
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MAX
Member
In planning stages of Don young's Black 5
Posts: 6
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Post by MAX on Dec 26, 2016 23:37:09 GMT
Excellent advice guys, i dont suppose anybody here has them scanned in?
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dscott
Elder Statesman
Posts: 2,440
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Post by dscott on Dec 31, 2016 20:50:39 GMT
Blackgates do all the castings and lots of laser cut items but not the drawings!!!
Reeves do the drawings and castings but not the laser cut parts? But they do a Boiler kit all in the flat as useful as???
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,922
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Post by jma1009 on Dec 31, 2016 23:07:27 GMT
Hugh Mothersole bought all of the rights to Don Young's designs shortly before Don died.
Hugh then sold the rights on to Reeves.
I was not aware Blackgates did any bits for Don's 5"g Black Five, but I cant find my Blackgates catalogue at the time of typing. If they did, it would be under licence from Reeves who hold the sole copyright in all aspects of the design.
Cheers,
Julian
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Post by John Baguley on Jan 1, 2017 16:03:56 GMT
Julian.
Reeves may well hold the copyright to the drawings and the copies of LLAS but I believe that is all. I very much doubt that they can prevent other people making parts, including castings, from those drawings.
John
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oldnorton
Statesman
5" gauge LMS enthusiast
Posts: 726
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Post by oldnorton on Jan 1, 2017 16:05:39 GMT
Blackgates do the majority of the castings for the DY Black 5 and certainly the majority of the CI items. I recall that Reeves do have a couple of bronze castings that Blackgates do not (a bogie item is one), but Blackgates have 90% of what is needed. The Drawings are available ONLY from Reeves.
If you want any laser cut steelwork/brasswork then go to Malcolm at ME Laser. He does everything and also the more detailed Galatea tender which is exactly the same LMS 4000 gallon tender. Some might allege that he provides the cut items to other suppliers but I would not add to such suggestions (!?)
Re the earlier question on the length of the frames. DY shows the option of lengthening the frame between driving and trailing axle to represent later versions of the Black 5. The longer dimension is for the much later roller bearing engines. The earlier frames had an 8'0" spacing between driving and trailing axles. At a scale factor of 1 and 1/16" to 12" (1.0625/12) 8'0" is exactly 8.500", which is what he shows. In 1947 they experimented with roller bearings and frames were made with longer driving to trailing axle gaps of 8'4" - this is 8.854" (0.021" short of 8 7/8"). The boiler was moved back 4" and a longer smokebox fitted. This lengthening of the frames then continued for some 85 (appx.) engines into 1950, although only 18 (appx.) engines had the roller bearings fitted.
A complication is that the the frames shown by DY are a 'stretcher modification' of the earlier type from 1934/35 still with early horns, keeps, ties bars and the spring hangers. However the boiler shown is a 1937 type with 24 superheater elements with the regulator now in the dome and injector feed in a thinner cover just ahead. (An added complication is that the DY GA drawing No.1 shows the injector feed cover at the front, which is an even later boiler.) In 1937, to fit the sloping throat plate boiler, the frame stretcher ahead of the firebox was changed in shape and moved forward. This is the frame that DY shows. But by 1937 the horns and spring hangers had also changed in small respects, but DY does not show this. So the only engines that ran as DY shows are 13 early ones from the first batch of 225 in 1934/35, that had their frames modified in late 1936 to late 1937 to take the sloping throat plate boiler; they would still have had earlier horns and hangers until later, when all were gradually updated as they cracked/wore and certainly after WW2. Does this level of detail really matter? I doubt it, but you may read comment elsewhere about the drawings being "early frames+late boiler".
Norm
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,922
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Post by jma1009 on Jan 1, 2017 21:28:04 GMT
My Blackgates catalogue has been located and states their design is a combination of Goodwin, Spink, and Allcock, and makes it clear it not the same as other designs (ie the Don Young design now owned by Reeves).
I hope that clears one point up.
Cheers,
Julian
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44767
Statesman
Posts: 539
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Post by 44767 on Jan 3, 2017 10:10:14 GMT
I was too far into building my Black 5 to change the type of frame and its length to suit the Stephenson link version. It really does not detract from the appearance. What I did do however, was make double hangers for the brake blocks which does add a lot of character to the frames and the necessary con rod and slide bar length changes per Don's notes. From memory, the weighshaft bearing brackets were a little different too.
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