1930 mineral wagon build 5” wooden frame

[turbominij]

And the first pair fitted think they will work ok once cleaned up a little

Need to lengthen the thread on the top one and shorted the total length once the nuts are on and it’s all tight

[brucevoelkerding]

I am finding this build very interesting. I am curious what kind of Wood is being used ?

[brucevoelkerding]

I am finding this Build Log very interesting. Might I ask, what kind of Wood are you using ?

[turbominij]

Hi thanks it’s been quite a fun build so far.

The wood is beech it’s been very nice to work with not too hard and not to soft

It is a wagon frame from the Yorkshire wagon company

theyorkshirewagoncompany.co.uk/Shop.html#!/products/19ft-underframe-timbers

It was originally meant for their cattle wagon but I have shortened it appropriately for this wagon.

[turbominij]

Little bit more done today

All the tie bars are done and silver soldered ready to drill the head stocks and sole bars.

Using the jigg it was nice and simple and very quick to produce them.

Then started a new part

Formed the central hook spring assembly from sheet as I had the soldering gear out

Cut a strip slightly large of 2mm steel whacked in the mill to bring down to width

Then folded it in the sheet bender and
Managed to snap once side trying to re bend after a mistake so just did two silver solder joints rather than one bit of a clean up and some holes in each end

Using some 2b a bolts as a dummy to check it will work

Now to wait for the hooks to arrive so I can make the rods and drill the holes in the frame



Looks like it will work nicely

[turbominij]

Today was a buffer day

Spent the a couple of hours making the buffer from stock steel

1-1/4” round with a 5mm hole in it

6mm rod 2-1/2 long with a 3.2mm hole in one end 3/8 deep

3.17mm tig rod 2”long

All placed together ready to solder now
Then need to profile the heads and cross drill the small end

[turbominij]

Today was buffer day #2

Silver soldered all the parts together

Did come against an interesting issue resulting me having to file a flat in the small rod to stop it hydrolic pressurising and poping out as I heated them whoops a little too tight on the fit

Once I got round that problem it went fine

Mounted in the lathe backwards Machined the rear face flat flipped it cut off the stub and faced the front

Then using a buffer profiling tool put a nice profile on the front of the buffer

Reamed out the stocks and fitted them to the head stock
Lapped in the buffer rods with wet and dry so they move freely









Now can mark where the hole on the buffer back support needs then can cross drill the buffers for the split pin

[JonL]

What a lovely build this is! A real pleasure to read.

[turbominij]

Aug 11, 2023 20:14:34 GMT JonL said:

What a lovely build this is! A real pleasure to read.

Thanks I’m no expert at all this first build thread and first wagon and some of these processes I have had little experience doing including wood working beyond the odd door hinge and door lock and
silver soldering it is relatively new, but I can weld which has probably helped a little


thought I’d document my progress as I found very few threads for rolling stock and even fewer for wooden framed wagons

[keith1500]

The wagon is coming along nicely.

Many moons ago I came across this article which may be of interest…

www.wrightsaerials.tv/annexe/wagon-shops.shtml

Keep up the good work and posting the progress.

Keith

[92220]

I've found this a very interesting post. Then wagon ism really coming along well. I notice a bit of corrosion on the mild steel strips and shapes. If these get painted without any treatment for the corrosion, within about 12 months, the paint will start flaking off. Can I suggest a handy solution that I learned as an apprentice many years ago (DON'T ask how many years!!!): a bath of about 15% phosphoric acid is an ideal treatment. Just dump all mild steel parts in the acid bath, rusty or not, and the surface of the metal turns a subtle shade of grey, and all the rust has been totally neutralised. It is only the surface molecules that are effected so there is no change in dimensions. The surface, having been coated with a layer of ferrous phosphate acts like a primer and is also an ideal surface to paint. Phosphoric acid used to be available off ebay but it doesn't seem to be now. However, I did find this place, on the internet, where it is readily available along with a number of other acidic rust removers. They are all reasonably priced too. This is the website I found:- www.rust.co.uk/product/cat/diy-vehicle-restoration-start-here/complete-vehicle-restoration/rust-removers-and-converters/   Note that after treating the steel, the items should be rinsed with warm, to hot, water to remove residual acid from the surfaces. As long as the surface has got it's grey coating, the water wash will not cause re-rusting.


Bob.

Edit.

I've found Phosphoric acid available on the internet. It is called  Clean And Clever Professional Phosphoric Acid Toilet Cleaner, and is reasonably priced at around £12 to £14 per litre. 
Bob.

[turbominij]

Hi bob thanks for that

Yes I intend to fully stop it Down and treat all the parts to a rust treatment and paint probably in two stages stage one being once the frame is done


And two all the body metal once I have crafted it all

That way it won’t be sitting about to long some of these parts have already been sat about a year before I even started

I find a little go over with a flapper wheel before treatment works well on cars parts and larger scale items so will probably do the same with thiusing my dremel

The acids is not something I have use do have only ever used commercial kurust how does it compare to that?


James

[92220]

Hi James.

Phosphoric acid is way better than Kurust. At least it was when I tried Kurust many years ago. Maybe they have changed the formula since, and made it better, but having got a small, very effective, bath of phosphoric, I'm not going to change from something I know works well.

Keep, up the good work. Your post is really interesting to follow.

Bob.

[keith1500]

A tip for doing the planks.

They only have the top edge chamfered and the way I did this was using the pillar drill. I set a chamfer bit in the dill, the type used for screws and clamped a guide to the table. Then set it so it just kissed the edge of the plank. Run the planks through they should all be the same.

Cheers
Keith

[turbominij]

Aug 13, 2023 7:59:03 GMT keith1500 said:

A tip for doing the planks.

They only have the top edge chamfered and the way I did this was using the pillar drill. I set a chamfer bit in the dill, the type used for screws and clamped a guide to the table. Then set it so it just kissed the edge of the plank. Run the planks through they should all be the same.

Cheers
Keith

That’s a good idea guess that acts as an upside down routing table

I hadent thought about planks yet working towards a finished chassie first but now you mention it where is the best place to get the right size or am I milling/planning down over sized ones 5/8 (I fear this might be what I’m doing)

[turbominij]

Only a little progress but in the right direction ….. backwards…

Flat packed the wagon so I can add a few bits holes and trim all the bolts


Made the brake safety hoops

Need a little more stratening before fitting
And need to make the brake hanger blocks before I can re assemble


Found some 6x36 mm 2.4m at £5 should make quite a few planks that I can cut in half and mill down to the correct size doubling it

[thumpersdad]

Aug 12, 2023 14:25:50 GMT 92220 said:

I've found this a very interesting post. Then wagon ism really coming along well. I notice a bit of corrosion on the mild steel strips and shapes. If these get painted without any treatment for the corrosion, within about 12 months, the paint will start flaking off. Can I suggest a handy solution that I learned as an apprentice many years ago (DON'T ask how many years!!!): a bath of about 15% phosphoric acid is an ideal treatment. Just dump all mild steel parts in the acid bath, rusty or not, and the surface of the metal turns a subtle shade of grey, and all the rust has been totally neutralised. It is only the surface molecules that are effected so there is no change in dimensions. The surface, having been coated with a layer of ferrous phosphate acts like a primer and is also an ideal surface to paint. Phosphoric acid used to be available off ebay but it doesn't seem to be now. However, I did find this place, on the internet, where it is readily available along with a number of other acidic rust removers. They are all reasonably priced too. This is the website I found:- www.rust.co.uk/product/cat/diy-vehicle-restoration-start-here/complete-vehicle-restoration/rust-removers-and-converters/   Note that after treating the steel, the items should be rinsed with warm, to hot, water to remove residual acid from the surfaces. As long as the surface has got it's grey coating, the water wash will not cause re-rusting.


Bob.

Edit.

I've found Phosphoric acid available on the internet. It is called  Clean And Clever Professional Phosphoric Acid Toilet Cleaner, and is reasonably priced at around £12 to £14 per litre. 
Bob.

Is that too much rust for a etch primer to cope with?  I have some similarly rusty parts and have been wondering whether to clean them before priming.

Eric

[turbominij]

Yes defiantly you want to irradiate all rust else it will come back

I will rub them all down and then treat them before painting with etch

Might try the above mentioned acid in the past I have used the brush on kurust on car parts to good effect u brush it on and leave it

[92220]

One problem with rust is that it will continue to increase even when under a coat of paint. Hoping the etch primer will kill the rust will generally not work as few etch primers will have enough acid in them to work on the rust. Another problem is that rusting will continue even when air is excluded by a coating of paint, because the rust will generate it's own 'atmosphere' under the paint. Just rubbing down rusty patches is also not a solution on it's own, because rust works it's way down into the metal and unless you take off a lot of the metal surface too, the abrasive paper will just not reach every molecule of rust. It will then be able to eventually regenerate.

Bob.

[thumpersdad]

Aug 16, 2023 8:18:52 GMT 92220 said:

One problem with rust is that it will continue to increase even when under a coat of paint. Hoping the etch primer will kill the rust will generally not work as few etch primers will have enough acid in them to work on the rust. Another problem is that rusting will continue even when air is excluded by a coating of paint, because the rust will generate it's own 'atmosphere' under the paint. Just rubbing down rusty patches is also not a solution on it's own, because rust works it's way down into the metal and unless you take off a lot of the metal surface too, the abrasive paper will just not reach every molecule of rust. It will then be able to eventually regenerate.

Bob.

Thank you Bob.  That is fascinating and I guess it explains this rust I found when I stripped the paint from some old frames.

P4080065 by Eric Sinclair, on Flickr

I have ordered some Milkstone remover via Amazon.  That appears to be 40% to 50% phosphoric acid.

Apologies for intruding on your excellent thread, James.

Eric