Modelworks

[pannierstan]

Yes you are a luck lad indeed.

You will be up with Locoworks North soon who I gather has 6 or 7 engines

Stan

P.S England win

[duchessmike]

I guess that all the Modelworks builders have now read the letter from Bob, and IMHO the letter's 'attitude' is really heartening.
Both the main players are obviously committed to delivering what we all signed-up for and the letter highlights some of the challenges that they have had to face and overcome.
Hopefully, Santa will deliver a big bag of goodies to the CNC Engineer; thanks mate!
Happy Christmas to all the Staff at Modelworks, and good luck in the New Year.
Mike

[Julia]

Mike
Am I missing something - letter from Bob?
Julia

[standardsteam]

I received a letter from Modelworks on my return home yesterday explaining some of the delays with regards to staff shortages and other factors. I found it helpful and think they should continue with keeping their customers informed in this way. I've nearly got all my parts now, just the remaining bits which are the same as those outlined on JJ's Brit build site, plus the smokebox castings which I haven't chased up yet.

[duchessmike]

Does anyone know if Modelworks are going to be at Alexandria Palace next weekend?
See you there maybe....
Mike

[standardsteam]

It's down on their website and I think I saw them listed in the show guide stapled to Engineering in Miniature, so I think so. (I was kind-of hoping the news section of the website would be a bit more... dynamic)

[tbsteam]

Has anyone built one of the likamobiles???

[paul]

Try searching before posting....

modeleng.proboards20.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1096210309&page=1#1096227347

[tbsteam]

I was going to offer a little bit of help for builders/owners of a likamobile as my grandad has built one and many parts have been sent back to modelworks to be fixed and got the parts back to find that they still don't fit.
Modelworks have actually said that it is kind of a second prototype.

[standardsteam]

Have a look at www.memoriesdreams.com/locomobile.htm

[alexinsuffolk]

Hi Folks

From a Newbie to the boards, I purchased a kit of parts for the 4 inch Burrell traction engine, and carried on buying the kits from Modelworks, Nows its up and running I am very pleased with it, but to be honest the Burrellbuilder websites spiritual guidance, gave us more technical help than Modelworks did, also having to chase missing or iffy parts is not on.

Luckily we have a fairly well equipped workshop so most calamaties were sorted fairly swiftly, the kit principle is good, because we would never have found the time to build from castings, however its far from perfect.

I am tempted to go for a steam car (likamobile) but have concerns again about the quality of parts supply, also waiting 10 months for the Burrell boiler is not something I wish to repeat.
(It wasn't the wait, it was the porkies told about the dates that annoyed!).

Also wouldn't they sell more, if the prototype locos, traction engines, steam cars etc were ready to go and use / test / abuse prior to kit releases?

So "Modelworks kits" great idea, but Must try harder as they used to put on my school report

[alanstepney]

At this time, I would avoid the likamobile.
It is far from proven at this stage, and whilst it may be a nice model at some time in the future, I would wait until then before spending loads of cash.

[steamfittings]

Hi Alex,

The ModelWorks Likamobile has now sold out so unless they plan to release another batch then purchasing one from them is not now an option. From memory the problem regarding your boiler on your Burrell was mostly due to the Burrell boilers being sourced from a third party and delivered in batches. If you are not now aware, ModelWorks now manufacture their own steel boilers so although this does not mean there will not be delays on boiler deliveries in the future it does mean that control is in their hands rather than a suppliers.

I think your comments regarding prototype engines are more than a valid, however i am sure the model engineers of this forum would partly agree that from a business prospective to build a prototype would not be economical from a business prospective. Look at the man hours that it takes an individual to scratch build any of the major projects on here and then do some simple maths and it quickly becomes apparent. The design alone takes a full time designer (and they are expensive) around about 12 months to complete and issue with full packing lists and isometric drawings, to then have the expense of one or maybe two men building a prototype would be suicide. Then there is no guarantee that the model will even sell and if it does they would be lucky to achieve a batch size of only 50 (and that tends to be two years later at the end of the production run).
What MW's try to do therefore is take an already proven model / design and use that as the basis for the prototype. With the Likamobile for example, Eric Hughes' steam car 'Freddy' that has been working and proven for over 10 years was used not only as the basis of the design but as the prototype working engine to test, fully dismantle (and i mean fully), take measurements from and then reassemble to test drive. All this done at Eric's home in N.Ireland with his kind permission. The same thing applies to the Foden lorry, a prototype was not built but by agreement with JRME their design was used as the basis to convert it to 3D CAD and we call on them and their expertise if needed. One of their employees Foden's was even loaned to ModelWorks for a whole rally season to test, improve or modify the design slightly, if needed, in order to productionise it. JRME even manufactured the boilers as MW's did not have the relevant coding in place at that time. It would be a better world if everyone helped each other on a you scratch my back and i'll scratch yours basis.

'Must try hard' is a comment i whole heartedly agree with, things are improving albeit slowly, especially on the quality and as a company MW's should always look at getting better, i just do not see building a prototype as a way of doing this at the cost implication.

Regards

Dean

[alanstepney]

Dean,
I must disagree with one part of your post, and also, if you are correct, with Modelworks philosphy.

to build a prototype would not be economical from a business prospective.

That is just part of running a business. If you cant do it properly, it is better not to do it at all.

It is only since the advent of the computer industry and companies like Microsoft that the idea has spread that you send out part-built goods and hope the customer can make it work in some way, and when they do, use that feedback to get the design right.

[steamfittings]

Alan,

Thanks for your comments.

'If you cant do it properly, it is better not to do it at all', however, everybody's definision of properly varies. Lets take most of the engineering drawing you guys are working to on your various builds. Are they problem free? I personally have never found a set on something complex without the odd issue or error. If the original designer had that philosophy he or she may never have even started. They were started with the best intention. How many original Simplex builders made the eccentric rod to the original drawings to the find them the wrong length and then after all that work it needed remaking. Other errors were made and can be found on the Simplex site but during time (years) these have been updated and improved. Surely it was better to start and improve on, than not start at all.

Winson spent £70,000 per year on building prototypes and to what avail? None! The prototypes didn't work properly, the quality and fit was still awful, they didn't sell many more than ModelWorks and ultimately they still went bust. If a good 3D CAD system is used it is possible to design something properly, then using animation and valve events programmes you can be almost certain things will be okay. As with anything else manufacturing based, it still requires whoever makes the parts to make them acccurately. ModelWorks 4" Burrell is one of the best engines on the market and was produced without a prototype. The prototype money saved was far better spent on employing someone who knows about the design and working of a traction engine and who knew what potential problems to look for during production prior to it being despatched. If it had not been done at all, 85 customers potentially would not have realised their ambitions.

On the financial side. I'll do some very basic sums. A 14xx for example costs less than 5k once the dreaded VAT man has had is slice. This model consists of 1000 parts. 20% of the 5k is the material cost, bringing it down to 4k. A batch of 50 of which one is used as a control model, when all sold therefore generate £196k, Take off the year it takes to deisgn, write instructions, create isometric drawings etc brings it down to £163k equating to £3.2k per model before a single part is manufactured. To then reduce this by employing a skilled man or woman to build a prototype even at the moderate rate of £10 per hour would eat another £23k into this figure, bringing it down further to £140k equating to £2.8k per model, and again not one production part has been made yet. Add marketing costs, brochures, wages, machine costs, building costs and overheads and somewhere in there profit and you'll hopefully begin to realise why i said building a protoype would be suicide. ModelWorks could just put the price up to account for building a prototype but experience has shown that it is a very price sensative market and sales would fall dramatically.

On a final note. I would like to offer you a visit to ModelWorks to see how things at the factory are done at a time mutually convenient to us both. You will be able to see an example of the design work being created, see boilers in production, a full machine shop in production and view some of the models currently being constructed without prototypes by ModelWorks and customers. I hope you take me up on this offer and once you've visited you it will put you in a far better position to comment on the basis of what you have seen and observed.

I'll look forward to meeting you.

Regards

Dean

[gilesengineer]

Dean, I have to disagree with your philosophy.
Modelworks are producing a product - and therefore the customer has a right to a product that is serviceable and up to standard. That means that it should do or be what it says on the packet! - I can't think of anything you'd buy from anywhere where this wouldn't apply.

If Modelworks (or anybody else) can achieve that standard without prototyping, all well and good, and more power to their elbow. However, this doesn't seem to be the case. There do seem to be problems coming through. You say that Winson built a prototype of their product, but it didn't help . Well, they should have built more prototypes till it DID work.
Since I'm in design and manufacture myself (Theatre stages and Auditoria), I understand both the practical necessity to prove the design as well as the commercial implications (...which are indeed hard), but we cannot go to market with a product that isn't fit for purpose, and if we can't do it for a price that our customers will pay - well then, we just don't do it! If it's not an 'economical business prospective' to get the job right, then don't do it - don't make mistakes at the customers expense and inconvenience - one cannot justify that, unless kits were advertised as being 'mostly right-but built to a price'

We have to bear in mind that it IS possible to manufacture loco kits that go together and work properly - both maxitrack and Polly do it - so one can't blame it on the 'technology', only on a company's execution of it.

I think what Modelworks is trying to do is a great idea, but the business model doesn't appear to be solid enough to support it properly and reliably if they can't invest sufficiently to get the product right.

Incidentally, Presumably the Likamobile can't be registered for the road without type approval, as they're not one-offs? Or have I mis-understood the law on that? I should be interested to know, and pleased to be corrected..... Though the photo that appeared in Old Glory some months back with the two rear wheels sheered off on a rally field doesn't encourage one...

A fully functioning and reliable prototype that people could see whizzing round a track or whatever would probably give courage to quite a few customers who would otherwise walk away, as well as demonstrating that the kit has had its bugs ironed out.

I do actually wish Modelworks well, but not at model engineers expense.

[tbsteam]

At the moment i think the only problem is quality control.
I think that modelworks could save themselves money if they had some form of quality control.It may cost them at the start but could save them a lot of trouble and a lot of money.

[gilesengineer]

.... well, lack of quality control (if that's the case) on what should be precision engineered products would be even more culpable.

The idea behind all the kit manufacturers is that THEY have people with micrometers (and use them) so the customer doesn't have to.

Either someone manufacturing in a company has a micrometer, or they don't. If they have, they are either using it to check their product or they are not. If they are checking the product, the bits that are out of tolerance (assuming they're working from drawings which give acceptable tolerances) should be slung in the scrap bin and not find their way out to the customer.

Quality control at that level is very very basic, and usually only fails when people are in such a hurry or under such pressure that they don't have time to check - or if people aren't trained to check in the first place.

I have no first-hand experience of Modelworks myself, so I couldn't say how much may or may not apply to them.

When I buy an injector from B & B Designs, for instance, I expect to bolt it on to the loco and for it to work (which it does - very well). I see no difference between an injector and a cylinder assembly or smokebox or whatever...... and if I agree to pay whatever the requested price is for an injector or a full loco, I would expect them both to be made with the same accuracy that ensures that they work as advertised. This is not unreasonable.

Regards

Giles

[steamfittings]

Hi Giles,



There are a few differences between the likes of Polly & Maxitrack, ModelWorks and injectors.



Firstly, lets say you and fifty other people were to purchase an injector from B & B in a kit. Would you expect them all to go together identically, bolt straight on your engines and every one work the same? I don't think so, even if a hundred prototypes have been produced before hand. I have first hand experience with this format with my lubricator kits. Of the thousand or so we've sold we get the occasional person who strugglings to get it to work for whatever reason even though every single one is manufactured the same and gone through a full quality inspection. This could be that they don't follow the instructions and isometric drawings properly (or even read them!) or they simply do not have the common sense or dexterity to assemble it but wanted to give it a go anyway (and fair play to them).

The same applies to a locomotive kit. Whether it is MW's, Polly or Maxitrack producing a batch, very few, if any, of say 50 loco's assembled by different levels of skilled or unskilled individuals would be exactly the same. Almost nothing is fool proof. The two things i see as the most important are that the design is correct in the first place with valve gear and movements proven and then that Quality Control is good enough to ensure that production manufactures exactly to that design. The only thing the prototype will then achieve is that it will become a marketing tool (and a very expensive one at that). This still will not guarantee all engines will work perfect and identical every time. Ultimately in an ideal world the kits may leave the premises 100% perfect and everyone identical but customers still have the final say as they do the finishing and assembly. They can file too much off, loctite something in place that shouldn't be, not tighten something up thats critical, change the design because they think they know better, the list is never ending and these things do happen. If MW's were producing a range that will run forever and a day, like OS do with there 5" Rocket or Polly and Maxitrack do with some of their products then it is far easier to improve continuously. OS have took many many years to make their Rocket as good as it is and each time they released it, they improved it and the instructions to the point where it is the dogs nuts. ModelWorks do not currently work the same as them. As an example the 7.25" A3/A4 only 20 in total were produced worldwide and they will never be manufactured again. Would building a prototype of these two engines have been good business? Would it therefore have been better not to have even started them? (i think so at times! MW's normally produces limited batch sizes, maybe the answer is to not release new models and just stick to the old one's and improve them over years? This is sort of happening with the Burrell. MW's may not be perfect but they do offer variation as they are not the same as the other manufacturers. Builders know that if the don't fancy a GWR engine that a LNER could be next and if not that a LMS could be round the corner. If they don't fancy a Burrell they could soon have a Foden. If they don't fancy that it could be a full size steam car or possibly a steam motor bike who knows what is on the horizon.
These things have been done and are possible in the future but do not always take a prototype. They take careful design, excellent QC, good manufacture and a customer service that can suit all. But even with all these things in place it is as easy for the customer to make an error as it is MW's.

The invite offered to Alan is an open invite. Should any one in the forum wish to visit ModelWorks then they would be more than welcome. Simply call and make an appointment and i will do a guided tour. As many or as few at a time as you want. At least this way it will put everyone in a far better position to comment on the basis of what you have seen and observed.

Regards

Dean

[paultomlinson]

I dispair with Model Works. My kit 11 was delivered four weeks ago with a missing slide bar. I have phoned MW five times, spoken to Debbie three times, Elizabeth(?) once even emailed Dean, left an answerphone message, what else can I do. Think it's far less aggro if I just make another one then send the bill to MW. Whatever the arguments are for these type of kits customer care at this Company is non-existant. I am very close to stopping delivery of further kits. Any comment in public Dean?

Paul.