Modelworks

[Garry]

Hello to everyone. I am in the process of building a Modelworks A4 and have had a lot of problems. I have recently had the trading standards people involved who have spoken to Modelworks who replied that they did not know of any complaints or problems with their kits. The trading standards think this is strange considering my e-mails to and from them as well as them not replying to hand delivered letters regarding missing parts or faulty ones. Is there anyone out there who has problems with Modelworks and would like to forward me their e-mail address so I can pass it on. A couple of examples I have had are the wieghshaft having both squared ends machined at 30 degrees to each other and all 3 piston rods too long so that each piston appeared from the front of each cylinder, and all by different amounts. Please note this only applies to parts supplied by Modelworks. I know my first 4 kits were Winson but all the others were paid to Modelworks (with an increase in price) and all the parts had a Modelworks label on them. I do have a written description about the building of my loco (up to its present stage) for anyone who is interested.

[IP]

Gary,

I do not own any kit locos but notice from your post that you have built four of them. Are any of these by any chance a Winson Brit. I have agreed to have a look at a very poor example of one for an elderly gent who is not an engineer of any kind and who has paid a 'professional' to build it for him.

I'm not sure what the definition of professional is but looking at the standard of workmanship I wonder if it ought to read rank amateur.

Anyway I digress, do you have by any chance any drawings for the Winson Brit that I might have alook at.

Regards,

IP

[Garry]

Hello IP, I am sorry but you might have been misled with the statement about 4 kits. What it implies is that the complete A4 loco consists of 18 monthly kits and that kits 1-4 were Winson before the plug was pulled on them and the remainder of the kits are from Modelworks. So far I have 17 kits over a 4 year period and kit 18 was paid for 13 months ago. I know what you mean about the original being somewhat poor especially if the person cannot do any work himself. I am lucky to be able to do some of things but not all. My biggest problem after the chassis was assembled is that the centre cylinder crank pin was about 6thou oval and also tapered in and out by 1 or 2 mm in a distance of about 10mm. I dont know if you have problems with the Brits piston valves leaking but Modelworks's answer to Brit owners and their own piston valve locos is that the gaps can be filled with bathroom sealant!!!! I did not try but made PTFE ones instead. I am afraid I dont know anyone with a Brit to help you with the drawings.
Regards
Garry

[Tedron]

Hi IP,
I don't think you will have any luck regarding drawings for Winson Brit. But I know that Doug Hewson has done a great deal of work on other winson owners Brits. I suggest you contact him for advice.
Tedron

[IP]

Hi,

Thanks for the advice but I'm led to believe that Winson's more or less copied the Perrier Brit. I have not bothered with the drawings yet but will no doubt end up doing so before I get too much older.

Regards
IP

[Bigmac]

Hi, I am new to this website and I have just read some of the comments about the Winson/Modelworks Locos, I have a 71/4 Brit ,I suppose that most models are 5 Inch but if I can be of any help please get in touch, my engine has had the usual amount of problems since the start. "Put it together with two spanners and a file" was the understatement of the year, more like " Put it together with the help of a fully equipped workshop".
Any how I have overcome most of the problems up to now by doing jobs like narrowing the frames by a couple of mm to gain more clearance at the wheels and reprofiling the cylinders and adding a host of extras such as working steam sanding gear and remaking the coupling rods, as my loco is the last named and is a little different from the earlier engines, I get a lot of new castings from Jim Vass and I have most of his drawings and the mixture seems to be working fine I have a complete main frame, trailing truck and bogie and the lot runs along the rails pushing with one finger,the cylinders have yet to be fitted, Modelworks have been very helpful and supplied me with anything that I have asked for without any problem so maybe you have been a bit unlucky I have been to two meetings at Daventry and they have been only too eager to help, I am only giving my experiences of them, it seems to me that if the hole lot was given a bit of thought and carewhen it was being manufactured most of the problems would not exsist, it must be just as easy to do it right as do it wrong.

[Garry]

I am pleased someone else has actually admitted they have had problems. Mine have been continuous up to the last 1/2 kit last week. I did give up on getting the body shell so wrote to Modelworks asking for some material to do it myself and was surprised when they telephoned me to say they had a body they would send to me at the end of the week. I was told I would be impressed (ha ha) BUT they have not done the front nose shape yet (21 months after cashing my cheque). I was not impressed at all with the bodyshell. The dome cover hole was across a boiler band instead of between bands and this cannot be rectified with filling. The rear band is under the roof when it should be in front of the roof (the roof should actually be lower as there is a separate cover that matches the body height. Gaps all around the boiler bands and the footplates do not fit the frames and also parts of this shell catching wheels and radius links. This is just the last installment of a set of totaly rubbish parts. If anyone knows the 0 gauge scene there was a series of loco kits called "El crappo" but the manufacturer did say the loco might not be correct etc. For me this Winson/Modelworks loco ranks with that title due to the cost involved. For reference for people who say they are two different companies Modelworks are using the Winson photos on their web site, some of the staff are the same AND 1 set of my instructions (kit 11 I think) had the Winson name on them after about 6 kits from Modelworks, it seems they forgot to change the computerised sheets on that occaision. I feel somepeople are either very easily pleased OR they cannot continue with their loco because of problems.

[IP]

Chaps,

I spoke to a model works fellow at the recent Bristol exhibition, he informed me that they had 'Loads' of ex winson's stuff lying about the place. This might be an answer to some of the questions.

The Brit I am trying to put right for a friend does not have a boiler certificate, the guy from model works told me they had copies of the previous winson boilers.......

regards,
IP

[Garry]

I really think they had most of the A4 left lying around the place and thought they might make something out of it by charging an extra 25% but unfortunatly the parts were not checked for quality although the recent bodyshell is theirs (Modelworks) and the quality is no different. With respect to the boilers mine did need the front plate straightening as the front bush was not square (Modelworks answer was to put the screw in and hit it with a hammer to straighten) I made a large bar to screw in and just pulled it upwards. All the bushes seemed to have a radiused top which needed filing flat to give a good seal with appropriate washers but after that it has passed and recieved our club certificate without problems. It has steamead for about 7 or 8 hours now with other problems which I hope to sort out tomorrow down at the club with reference to some of the answers from here about poor steaming.

[IP]

Gary,

Don't know if you would agree with this or not but the way the Brit I have here could be described as being very amateurish..................certainly not worth what the owner paid for it and as for who ever originally assembled it all I can say given what he charged for his services is that I don't know how he sleeps at night.


Regards
IP

[Garry]

Hello IP. I assume when you say amateurish you mean Winson/Modelworks? You only have to read my original letter for some of the things wrong. I have a 12 page account (at present) of the building of my A4. You should have seen some of the letters from me to them and their replies (when they could be bothered to reply). I once said to them I could spend less on a Ford Fiesta and drive it away without problems, Ford do not expect me to have to machine the pistons etc to make it work. My centre crank axle has the crank pin OVAL AND TAPERED all within approx 12mm. When I asked for a replacement I was told, quote, "I had to return mine as they did not want to send me one similar" Does this mean they have a lot of different incorrect ones? Surely the answer should be 'here is a replacement' which should be perfect. One of our club members was building a 9F and had a lot of poor quality valve gear and when he approached them at a show the answer was "we will look in the box and get the best ones out for you" He sent all the kits back and got his money back. My A4 had a good 4/5 hours run today but still has one or two problems with steaming. I have seen some shoddy work in different scales but I am not saying I am perfect, far from it, I still have a lot to learn but I dont know how these people sleep at night. Last year we went to a Modelworks rally where there was about 12 Winson/Modelworks locos on display but only 2 in running condition (very heavily modified/rebuilt) the others were just in bits BUT the only finished loco that would not run was... Modelworks own!!!!!!!!need I say more. Apart from mine the only other loco I have seen run was a Brit but again heavily modified or rebuilt.

[IP]

Gary,

It seems to me that the Brit I have in my workshop i very, very poor and will have to be heavily re-built before it will run.

Its a shame really for two reasons.....my Brit belongs to an old guy who has had his fare share of problems he is not an engineer [retired history teacher] and bought the kit with the promise that it could be put together with a spanner [ha ha] he then paid a 'professional model engineer £100 per kit to assemble it.

I'm led to believe that the 'engineer' was one of winsons own, my mate took delivery under the impression that it had steamed and was in running condition...............crafty so and so ...charcoal in firebox but no soot in smokebox, driving crank pins loose, no piston rings in valve bobbins, valve gear assembled backwards on right hand side of engine, the list goes on and on and on.

What compounded things was my mate didn't really know I feel that he'd been given a sop andf perhaps just thought he'd not mastered the art of loco driving yet!

Things are coming on a bit now the motion to the left hand side has been re-built and the whole kit and cabudle are running nice.

The other reason why its a pitty is that there are some very nice features on the loco it's just they haven't been executed very well.

Anyway must go lots to do in the workshop ...........on the Brit.

Regards IP

[Garry]

Hi IP, it all sounds very familiar. Having seen Modelworks own loco trying to be steamed and failing to run nothing surprises me. I have said for a long time the bits provided by them will not give you a working model without a rebuild or new parts etc. If you want to see my own build description which might give you an insight into what I have had to do please give me your e-mail address. I feel very sorry for these people who have been misled and taken for a ride. I did know that Winson were not too good and thought I would be able to make an acceptable model quickly. When Modelworks took over and a promise of better quality I thought great but, oh dear, in my case it was as bad or maybe worse. At least I now have a working loco and have to concentrate on making it better.
Cheers
Garry

[IP]

Gary, Hi,

I would be interested my email is :~

[e-mail]

You might also like to have a look at my web site which is located at :~

www.kinvermes.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/p1.htm

In due course, when I can find I intend to put some pictures of the Brit on the web site but expect that will be some time yet.

Regards IP

[Garry]

Hello IP did you recieve the information I sent you last week along with the photos?
Garry

[Deleted]

Hi,
I have bought a full set of 18 kits for the 7&1/4" Modelworks Brittania and then I discovered this website.

Can anyone tell me please what, if any, are the main problems with the Brit ? I have a decent workshop with a small milling machine.

Any guidance appreciated.

Thanks

Jim

[Phil Sutton]

Hi Jimmy,seeing as you have bought a Modelworks loco,I would tend to think you may well be lucky and have no problems at all.Modelworks generaly have few,if any QC troubles,unlike Winsons ,and the least said about that the better.The best thing you can do,is build the beast,and if any thing does raise it's ugly face,you are in the best place to get help.

Good luck

Phil

[greasemonkey]

HI Jimmy
I think you mean Winson's. Modelworks have never done a 7 1/4" gauge Britannia they just finnished the model of by producing the last 4 kits. As the production run was only about 25 kits they are not a very common model, made worse by Winson's going into receivership part way through the run leaving some people with incomplete models. Some parts may be available from Modelworks as spares but they are going to be of Winson manufacture.
I know of one chassis that is running on air but I dont know of any completed models.
Andy

[Garry]

Hello Jimmy, I can only tell you my problems as you will find that a lot of kits of the same engine can have different problems ie, what is wrong in yours could be correct in someone elses, or incorrect to different degree. I can tell you that I have not had a lot of success writing or talking to Modelworks (others have, and others have not like me). The QC maybe slightly better but it is only slightly, in my case most parts irrespective of manufacturer were poor, on the whole a lot of parts will probably need replacing or modifying. I have two and 2 major points to look out for are piston rod lengths, (one of my locos had 3 different sized LONG rods, and the other had short rods). If it is a piston valve engine then you will probably have the Winson design bobbins which have bronze rings. These rings are useless for 2 reasons 1) they are so tight you will not be able to turn the wheels and 2) they have a large slit in them which lets all the air / steam pass. These will need to be replaced, mine have been done with PTFE. I know the first batch of 5" Brits had a lot of problems but this was supposed to be corrected for the second batch. I dont know of the 7 1/4" ones though. I agree with the comments that it was a Winson loco but Modelworks sold them off, this was the same as both of mine. Please dont get me wrong, these engines look good when finished but, and I mean but, they do not go together as specified. After that good luck and I hope you can build it with out too many problems.

Garry

[Phil Sutton]

Hi Jim,Apologies,not having kept up with Modelworks,I (wrongly)assumed that they had up graded the Winson kits.I will therefor concur with the others about problems associated with Winsons.I still stand by my other statement though,about building it and sorting out the problems as you go along.After all,thats what we're here for!
Good luck (again)

Phil