Modelworks

[gilesengineer]

Hi Dean,

Absolutely, yes. I would expect them to go together - if not exactly the same, then at least close enough for them all to work properly. That's what quality control is about. After all, the amount of money is very large (even if you do struggle to do it for the price - your problem, not the customers.)

Of course the builder's will make mistakes and create problems occasionally - but no one would dream of laying that at Modelwork's door.

I absolutely agree with your statement
'... the most important are that the design is correct in the first place with the valve gear and movements proven and them that Quality Control is good enough to ensure that production manufactures exactly to that design.'

The problem is that this is obviously NOT the case, and a prototype is a valuable tool needed in order to achieve this (indeed- you do seem to build prototypes of some of your products - but I wonder if they are built before going into production - or simply at the same time as the production run....). Reading the various pages on this website makes it very clear that componants all too often simply don't fit, or are of questionable design or workmanship. Read them all yourself.

One comment on the Bagnall thread is by a chap who is having valve gear clearance problems, and he points out that his other loco - a Maxitrack Jack - was the fourth of the production line, but went together with no problem at all - so it CAN be done.

Modelwork produce limited runs, you say, and this prohibits the expense of prototyping. Why not increase the production run - as the last few are infinitely more profitable on the bottom line than the first few? If the problem is selling them, well, if you could demonstrate that they worked in advance, then more people might have confidence in them and buy them. I know of several people who have ummed and erred about buying one, but backed out and bought something else simply because of the reputation of kits not going together well.

(you can always sell a working prototype afterwards - or keep it as exhibition/sales demonstrator)


When I get the chance, I will be delighted to pop in and have a look round ModelWorks, and I hope to be very impressed and change my opinion when I do. One of the things I would want to look at though, is the parts bins and scrap piles all of which may be more informative than impressive machines. At the end of the day, I'd really be pleased to read from people who think that their Modelworks kits are actually really good and go together as well as they expected.

I think the idea of supplying kits of the beautiful prototypes that you do is a really wonderful idea - and if they are good kits (meeting the approval of Forum contributors, for instance) then I will take much more pleasure in letting people know how good they are - but you do seem to have a lot of frustrated and unhappy customers (and I can't believe that we only hear from the moaners, and that the vast majority are really happy - that just wouldn't be likely.)

I've read your Guidance Notes on getting the Likamobile road legal, and I also read your disclaimer. Now they're coming off the production line, do they not need type approval?

Regards,

Giles

[paultomlinson]

Still no news on my missing slide bar for the Duchess, so I have made one and sent MW a bill for £25. We are still outstanding the piston rings from kit 11 so I wonder if I will need to buy/make them and send MW a bill for these too. It's unfair that MW should send out incomplete kits and charge the full amount each time. The Britannia boys must have run out of patience by now, I wonder if they have paid for all their kits and yet according to JJ there are still many outstanding parts?

[alexinsuffolk]

Its noble of Dean to come on to the forums and take some flak, however messages from folks like Paul Tomlinson only cause me to put a hold on my lika order and wait until I can pick up a built and running one, when I suppose they will come up onto the used market.

I have to admit getting 3 different answers from 3 different people about my boiler was annoying, as was the promise I would go higher up the queue if I put a deposit down for a likamobile....I run mail order businesses, and If my staff had the Modelworks approach to customer service, they would be getting their P45s.

Giles postings make a lot of sense, and I am sure prototyping would alleviate some problems, and yes Double B designs, had my Modelworks Burrell injector back overhauled it to make it work properly......not good for a new fresh out of the packet item.

Despite my grumbles, I applaud what Modelworks are trying to do, but they need to pull together (not in seperate directions), also improve Quality and employ a Methods Engineer or similar (Julia from Burrellbuilder would be ideal candidate) to sort problems before the customers encounter them.

Cheers
Alex

[steamfittings]

Hi Paul,

For your information:

I was involved in a head on car accident on February 11th and have been unfit to return to work since. On Thursday of last week (6th March) i briefly visited ModelWorks to ensure things like emails etc were being followed through. I say briefly because within an hour i had to return home as i was feeling uncomfortable. While at the office i noticed your email and called you immediately to see if things had been sorted to your satisafaction. When i called i received no answer. This morning although signed off from work indefinately at the minute, i went back in to the office and tried calling you on numerous occasions from 8.30am onwards to recieve the engaged tone.

I will continue to try you today whilst in the office (about another hour if i'm lucky) and will take your number home with me to try to call you from my home phone when i feel up to it. Unfortunately the tablets i am on send me to sleep and i can not take them and be at teh factory at the same time.

Finally a letter should be going out to the Brit customers, from me, this week. It was on a short list of things for me to do from home that i am yet to do. It should confirm a despatch date of the final few items.

Dean

[duchessmike]

Take it easy Dean, I'm sorry to hear of your accident, and wish you a speedy recovery.
I hear from Debbie that the piston and valve rings are in and should be going out shortly; that'll allow us all to get on with the last batch of kits, I'm sure Paul will be pleased!
Now that you're improving and getting better, how's the car getting on?
Best wishes,
Mike

[alexinsuffolk]

Yep Dean, Take it steady...Health is more important than anything else, no doubt work will still be waiting when you've recovered.

Best wishes for a quick recovery.
~Alex~

[paultomlinson]

Dean rang me on Tuesday morning to explain the situation. To his credit he appreciates the problems in hand and assures me steps are in progress to rectify the situation. I was sorry to hear of your accident Dean and wish you a speedy recovery. The issue of the missing component was amicably resolved with no money changing hands.
As I have said a number of times, generally the machining of the parts by MW are to a good standard whicg gives me the opportunity to enhance them further. Please, please, please Dean sort out the customer relations.
Paul.

[nigeljones]

Sorry to hear about Dean. But our model tiger tank in Australia has been sick for at least 10 YEARS!!!! With no "customer relations" in sight. So really, even though we are sympathetic with Dean's plight, we hope his car costs him a fortune and never ever gets fixed - just like our Tiger tank!!!

[tbsteam]

i think that is a bit out of order!!

[paultomlinson]

Dean called me a while ago asking that if I have any problems then I should contact him direct as there were issues with a certain member of staff at MW. I have emailed Dean several times this week, guess how many times he has replied?
I thoroughly despair with MW to such an extent that I have now stopped all further deliveries/payments of the Duchess kit until I work out the best solution from here.

Paul T.

[bungle]

HI PAUL, I'M A NEW MEMBER TO THIS SITE (THANKS TO JULIA OLD). MY FATHER AND I ARE CURRENTY 'TRYING' TO BUILD THE MW 2" BURRELL, WE TO ARE DESPAIRING OF MW. APART FROM BEING WAY, WAY BEHIND, WE HAVE JUST HAD LIE AFTER LIE FROM DAY ONE. DEAN TO TOLLD ME TO ONLY SPEAK TO HIM, BUT WITH HAVE LOST FAITH IN EVEN WHAT HE TELLS US NOW - AS IT NEVER HAPPENS !!!!! I HAVE SPOKEN TO THE NEW GUY ONCE IN FEB. AND IT WAS OBVIOUS THAT HE HADN'T BEEN SHOWN THE MW LIE BOOK AT THAT TIME AS HIS STORIES WERE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TO THE OTHERS !! GUESS IF WE ALL HAVE TO SPEAK TO DEAN, LEAST THE LIES REMAIN THE SAME THAT WAY.
WE TO HAVE LOST INTREST IN OUR PROJECT, AND IT HAS BECOME A MILLSTONE ROUND OUR NECKS.
I SPOKE TO TRADING STANDARDS JUST OVER AWEEK AGO, EXPLAINED THE SITUATION - FOR ALL MW CUSTOMERS, NOT JUST US BURRELL BUILDERS - AND THEY ASSURE ME THAT MW ARE 'IN BREACH OF CONTRACT', ALONG WITH 'FAILURE TO SUPPLY', ETC AND SEEMED KEEN TO PROCEED WITH ACTION, THEY GAVE ME A REF. NUMBER TO CALL BACK WITH, SHOULD WE WANT TO GO THAT WAY. FRANKLY I'D RATHER SEE SOME ACTION, IN THE WAY OF KITS, CUSTOMER SERVICE, AND BETTER QUALITY PARTS IN THE KITS. SO FOR THE MOMENT I AM HOLDING OFF, ON THAT ACTION, GUESSING THAT IT WOULD ONLY DISTRACT THEM EVEN MORE FROM SUPPLYING US KITS, BUT I WON'T HOLD OFF FOR TO LONG.

REGARD TO ALL BUILDERS
BRUCE

[steamfittings]

Paul,
Once again you make your comments vocal on this site and that only relays a one sided, biased, version of events, although in private by email you ask for things to be amicable. You have emailed twice this week and once last week complaining about the basis of the MW's Duchess design and stating we should have based it on a different design and you were unhappy about the quality of the motion rods. The drawings you sent me were forwarded on to the designer to look at, who called you and discussed the situation during the week (prior to him calling i also called from the office and received no answer), once he spoke to you i then responded by email this morning confirming your discussion with him and decision to put your Duchess on hold until it could be resolved satisfactorily, stating i would chat to our design manager an update after the weekend. That is still the case.

Bruce,
Having met at Ally Pally i am totally dissapointed in your comments. When starting your build you called Steve Baldock a liar on a different forum because he gave you information that was correct at the time he spoke to you and most importantly his information was actually true. I believe the guy who ran the forum ended up cancelling it as he was over the moon with the project and became increasingly frustrated at your negative and in his opinion unfair comments. Now i read a comment where you are basically calling me the same. You mention legal action etc but fail to mention that on a couple of occasions i have offered you a refund on your engine that you have chosen to refuse. When was the last time you called me? I gave you my personal mobile number so you could get directly in touch regardless of the time day or night and nothing for months. Would the guy who runs British Gas do that if you had a complaint! Every time we have spoken in the past you have been told the situation at the time. At Christmas you were informed we were working to complete a boiler for you as a priority, unfortunately the boiler we made was rejected by QC as it was twisted. A batch of 30 are now almost complete, however our copper boiler maker has been off work 3 - 4 weeks due to a serious knee problem. He hopes to return on Monday, however, if he does it will not be for long, as he has been told he needs to admitted to hospitel for an operation. Another 2" Burrell kit is being despatched early next week so the deliveries do not slip any further.
We are trying to address production issues and have taken on 3 new production staff since January, one of them, Paul, i'm sure it is the guy you spoke to, has now been off also for 3 weeks due to an engineer at his own firm having a heart attack and is unlikely to return during April. I have, in desperation, even been in touch with one of our old boiler makers to see if he can cover for the current guy who's off.........................Even with the current production issues, since January kit deliveries have improved for almost everyone. We work tirelessly to deliver our products on time but sometimes no matter how many hours you do it's never enough and therefore not everyone will be happy. Admittedly there is a way to go to get back to where we should be but it is improving and hopefully will continue to do so.

At Steamfittings i get no stress or hassle, do limited hours and earn substantially more than at MW's and do not get called a liar (or worse) on a forum with a thousand members! At times like this i start to wonder if the effort and stress is worth while. Regardless of how many positives we receive it still only takes one negative to destroy all the hard work and effort everyone puts in.

Customers pay their money and have every right to an opinion but is destroying a company on a forum the right way forward for the model engineer fraternity. Surely constructive critisism, rather than destructive critisism is what will benefit us all.

Regards

Dean

[bungle]

DEAN,
ACTUALLY STEVES INFO AT THAT TIME WAS NOT TRUE, AND TURNED OUT NOT TO BE TRUE. I EXCEPT THAT STEVE MAY HAVE BELEIVED IT TO BE TRUE AT THAT TIME.
ALL THROUGH THIS SITE (WHICH EVER MODEL) THERE ARE MENTIONS OF MW 'MIS-LEADING' CUSTOMERS AT TIMES, SO I DON'T THINK ANY OF US ON HERE ARE SURPISED BY ANYBODY SAYING/FEELING THAT THEY HAVE BEEN TOLD LIES.
YOU DID INDEED OFFER US A REFUND AT AROUND KIT 8. BY THIS TIME WE HAD INVESTED A LOT OF TIME, AND MONEY WITH OVER SUPPLIERS, WHICH WE WERE NOT HAPPY WITH LOSING, AND AT THAT TIME YOU REASURED US THAT THINGS WERE ABOUT TO CHANGE FOR THE BETTER, WHICH AT THE TIME WE BELEIVED.
MW MUST HAVE THE MOST SICKLY WORKFORCE IN BRITSH HISTORY, IN JAN YOU TOLD US NO BOILER BECAUSE THE COPPER BOILER MAKER WAS OF SICK FOR FIRST COUPLE OF WEEKS IN JAN, NOW YOU SAY HE'S BEEN OFF FOR THE LAST FEW WEEKS. IT SEEMS THAT WE ARE ALWAYS HEARING OF THE PARTICULAR MEMBER OF STAFF BEING OF SICK FOR THE PART/KIT WE ARE WAITING FOR AT THAT TIME !
AS I SAID IN MY PREVIOUS POST, I'VE STOPPED CALLING YOU AS, FOR WHATEVER REASON, WHAT YOU TELL US NORMALLY FAILS TO HAPPEN. AND THAT OF COURSE JUST ADDS TO OUR FRUSTRATION.
AS FOR JO BEING TOTALLY HAPPY WITH EVERY THING THAT MW SAID OR SUPPLIED, DOES NOT QUITE ADD UP, BUT I'M NOT GOING TO BRING SOMEBODY ELSE INTO THIS, AS IT'S NOT FAIR ON JO. HE CAN SPEAK FOR HIS SELF, I WILL MENTION THAT I WAS TOLD THAT HE CLOSED HIS FORUM BECAUSE IT BECAME OVER RUN BY SPAMMERS, WHICH WE KNOW TO BE TOTALLY TRUE.

BRUCE

[paultomlinson]

Latest email from Dean below. I have asked for a partial/full refund but Dean has rejected that proposal.



Hi Paul,

Having spoken to Steve we are both in the opinion that the work required to clean up the rods could be done without machinery and although time consuming for our customers is therefore acceptable. We did experiment with the Britannia by machining them from solid but this took two full months to do and during that time no other kits were manufactured. The rods on our control model after cleaning up manually, do look acceptable.
We also changed the way we manufactured the cylinders on the Duchess and these took twice as long as they normally would but because of it I believe our Duchess customers have received the best cylinders MW's have ever produced. The decision to do this was not based on production time or financial, it was based on the cylinders being super critical to the working of the engine and therefore it had to be 100% accurate and correct. I suppose what I am saying is that it 'swings in roundabouts'. On something like the cylinders where we would prefer the customers not to touch or do limited finishing we will spend longer on them at whatever the cost, on something like the rods where it is deemed with effort and time spent, our customers could produce a high level of finish a decision was made that a laser cut would be sufficient as long as the machined centres we put in were true and accurate.

To change from the current design at this stage would not be practical. Our designer has spent 12 months on this project and to switch to something based on someone else's design (you mention Jim Vaas) would take many more months of research and work as well as seeking permission. At no point when placing your order did you question our design or ask who's design our model was based on or give an opinion on good or bad designs available.

To return the kits for the reason you have mentioned would not be acceptable. For a start you have made numerous changes (your words) and because of these changes your model would be different to the other 49 on the market. Even if you were to return the kits that you have not modified a partial refund could not be issued as these kits would be worthless to us without the missing kits. We only manufacture a limited batch meaning spare kits are not available. We would be willing to help assist in selling the engine on your behalf and would do our utmost to transfer any support from your engine to the new customer.

I have briefly spoken to Bob Jones, our chairman and tried to explain the situation. I know you have previously had dealt with him in the past with a model or two purchased on Ebay. He has asked me to forward this email on to him and he has offered to give you a call to discuss the matter further.

Best Regards
Dean Rogers
ModelWorks
Daventry
England
Tel: [phone]
Website: www.modelworks-int.com



So it looks as though you will have to be content with laser cut motion..just like Winson kits!!

[paultomlinson]

Unfortunately I have now started litigation proceedings against MW. I have numerous points such as failure to supply and goods not of a satisfactory quality. I have received a number of emails from MW builders with their tales of woe and if anyone else would like to contribute please PM me.
I tried to resolve this problem amicably with MW, reply I had from Dean was that he was merely an employee and couldn't make any decision, yet when I talked to the chairman he too couldn't make a decision and would refer it to Dean!!
Out of interest has the next Duchess kit turned up or don't tell me it's late again. How about piston rings, have they turned up yet?
Can't believe Dean said that the final Britannia kit was to be delivered last week only to find that there are still a fair number of missing items!

Paul.

[tbsteam]

You might end up putting MW out of business doing that.
Yes, i understand that you have had problems with them but somethings you have just got to deal with the problems and get them sorted other ways.
So what if parts arrive late, have you never been late to work or a party etc.
And so what if parts aren't up to scratch, either get MW to send you a new part or get the part fixed and get MW to pay for it.

[alanstepney]

I have now started litigation proceedings against MW

Whilst there are always pros and cons with taking such action, I am sure that others must have thought of doing so before.

Indeed, from the complaints I have seen, I am surprised it hasnt happened already. (Or if so, I havent heard of it.)

A shame, because the concept is good, but the execution does appear to leave something to be desired.

[bungle]

HI ALAN,
I HAVE LOOKED INTO DOING SOMETHING ALONG THE LINES OF PAUL ( INDEED PAUL AND I HAVE 'SPOKEN' IN PM's). I HAVE HAD CONCERNS ALONG THE LINES OF tbsteam, BUT YOU DO SIMPLY GET TO THE POINT OF TOTAL DISPAIR.

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOUR COMMENT OF GOOD CONCEPT, BAD EXECUTION.

WHAT I THINK WE (MOST MW BUILDERS) WOULD LIKE IS TO: GET KITS - NOT LIES, BETTER PARTS - NOT EXCUSES, CUSTOMER SERVICE - NOT CONTEMPT.

ON THAT LAST POINT, MY FEELINGS ARE THAT ALOT OF MW's PROBS COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED WITH BETTER (I.E SOME !!!) COMMUNICATION WITH THEIR CUSTOMERS. MOST PEOPLE ARE A LITTLE MORE UNDERSTANDING IF YOU DO NOT LEAVE THEM IN THE DARK ALL THE TIME, AND DON'T TELL THEM THAT SOMETHING IS HAPPENING, KNOWING FULL WELL THAT IT'S NOT ! CALL IT WHAT YOU LIKE LIES, CONTEMPT, OR WHATEVER, BUT IT SURE AS HELL IS GOING TO GET PEOPLES BACKS UP.

YOU CAN ONLY BANG YOUR HEAD AGAINST THE WALL FOR SO LONG BEFORE YOU LET SOMEBODY WITH MORE POWER, BANG THEIR HEADS.

REGARDS TO ALL
BRUCE

[paultomlinson]

Is MW still alive? They do not reply to my emails or letters, jj on the Britannia website is still waiting for a response and I see the Duchess builders have not received their next kit or piston rings as promised by Dean a while ago.

Litigation is the last thing I want to do, I have exhausted all other avenues of settling this matter to no avail. It's not just a case of the kits being perpetually late there are lots of other issues which have been documented on this forum. I only wish it was as simple as you believe tbsteam but I'm afraid it's not. By the way I have never been late for work! There would be more than a few angry people if I had turned up late for work in my profession!!

[tbsteam]

i'll find out what is happening on saturday as they will be at harrogate(i think).