Winson 1400 Problems List

[sjtown]

Hello All!

Am new here and have read all the posts relating to the model works and Winson 1400.

I have an early Winson 1400 which we bought complete and painted, although it was complete it had some modifications to help with steaming and was painted pretty badly.

I have had MANY problems with this and have made LOTS of modifications myself, even though I have little engineering skill and tools!

Now, if I was to take the time now to go through my history with the 1400 over the last couple of years I would be here all night and you lot would probably rather have me print it and send it to you so you can read it at your leisure!...

So what I thought might be of interest, not just to Winson owners but also to Modelworks owners, is to make a list of the problems you have encountered and how you have managed to resolve them.
I don't want to give the impression that we need to warn Modelworks owners of problems they may encounter, far from it, in fact I have several Modelworks 1400 parts integrated into my Winson 1400 and have found the design and quality to be very good!

Hopefully we shall all benefit from this as I'm very interested in how to resolve some of my piston and oiling issues and I'm sure someone else will be interested to hear how I have integrated the Modelworks Regulator system into my Winson boiler and all the other modifications..

Mine runs well to a certain extent, although a lot better compared to how it used to be!
I have had it running on a rolling road and on 35m length of track, but needs further testing on our club track before it has a new boiler test and is stripped down and painted.

Right then enough of me going on for now, I will let someone else start, as if I start my list now this post will seem like it will never end, and thats not good for a first post!

Look forward to hearing from you all!

Steve ;D

[Phil Sutton]

Hi Steve .I would be very interested in your mods, and your probs,you can always e-mail me direct if you wish,

Phil

[sjtown]

Hi Phil,

I will post it here for all to see!

I have been writing for a good few Hours and have come up with a lot on the first few subjects.
I still have Valves and Timing, Pistons and Oiling to go but here's what I've done on these subjects...

Incidentally my boiler number is 93 not sure how earlier this is, but does seem to lack some of the Winson modifications I've read about!

Here goes Part 1!
You may to want to print it!


Problems so far….

Fittings
I was not impressed with the brass chunk style fittings and valves so all have been replaced, as well as the site-glass due to its unacceptably small length of visible glass.
The safety valve was also unimpressive, not for its functionality as it does its job well, possibly to well at times. It is very harsh with a ‘pop’ action which makes you jump even if you know its coming, it also likes to empty the steam at an excessive rate on occasion with out closing off quick enough.
Mine has been replaced by a much ‘nicer’ one made by Dave Noble.
The pressure gauge did its job but was also replaced with one that went higher then 100Psi, as with a running pressure of 90 it didn’t give much indication if things went a bit ‘wrong’, plus it gives a better indication as 90 is actually printed larger, rather then having to marked on with pen!
I will talk about the regulator later….!

Boiler Level
The boiler was not level in the frames and was rectified by jacking the firebox end up about ¼”.
This is simple enough, but this then means the spectacle plate( front of cab) is now to big meaning the firebox profile of the plate needs filling down to allow for the extra height.
As well as this the strap across the top of the boiler between the two tanks is now to short, so a new one has to be made. Adjustments tot eh front of the tanks has to be made with a file to try and complete the curve of the boiler at its new height, this is tricky as the curve of the tank did not match the curve of the boiler to begin with!

Smoke Box and Blast Pipe
The original builder of my 1400 already noted the problems with the blast pipe alignment with the chimney and has attempted to rectify this by cutting and soldering the exhaust pipes to a vertical angle (when screwed into the pistons). This is due to the pistons being on a downward angle and the pipes having to screw directly into this meaning the pipes and the joining single blast pipe point at the same angle as the pistons away form the chimney.
To get a good straight up the chimney angle the smoke box needed to be moved (!). This was the easiest approach to resolve the miss alignment problem and only involved pushing the sealing ring on the back as far as it would go. Once pushed back the smoke box was drilled for a new securing bolt and refitted giving an almost direct aim up the chimney! The movement couldn’t be more then 2 or 3mm back so aesthetically I don’t think anyone would notice, especially as a lot of the other bodywork as mentioned before isn’t spot on!
I have also narrowed the blast pipe to aid draw on the fire, this has only been narrowed by a couple of thousands of an inch using a very small length of copper tube. The results are very encouraging, giving a very obvious aid to steaming and change in exhaust note!

Leaf Springs
Brass and tufnol.....very springy!, er no, both my rear axle leaf springs have been remade in spring steel to give support on the rear after simple bending under any weight. Initial running of the loco had many problems including this one where the loco would frequently get board of going round the same piece of track and would jump off at the front on each curve, this being quite scary when on raised track!
Now with all home baked steel springs the rear weight is support keeping the loco level and weight on the front wheels.

The Regulator (This is a long one!!!)
The original Winson design was never really spectacular, but does its job. The original builder of my 1400 decided not to go with this, although I’m not sure why as his even more unspectacular design was rather nasty. It was a not very well made screw valve with thin pipe work and loose ‘slap around in the boiler’ style steam intake pipe up into the dome. After getting fed up with the loss of steam from the valve not closing properly I investigated the probability of integrating the new Modelworks regulator into my boiler.
Seeing as though Modelworks were basically rebuilding the Winson model but upgrading and entirely redesigning some parts of the model fitting new bits on to the old design, I thought it shouldn’t be too hard!
Looking at the regulator parts of a friend of mine who is currently building a Modelworks 1400 I came to the conclusion that the most important threads (the banjo bolt in the smoke box and regulator on the back plate) were the same and that if I could buy all the parts in between the two ends of the boiler the system should work.
Having already spoken to Modelworks about the sizing and fitting of the regulator into a Winson boiler and having them confirm that they thought it would be possible as they ‘are the same’.
So I ordered the entire Regulator system (let me know if anyone wants to know the exact bits) and waited for it to arrive…
After arrival and faffing around for a while looking at the bits and comparing sizes etc, I put the large regulator assembly in the hole in the top of the boiler and it fitted perfectly… that was until I pushed through the regulator rod from the back plate and attempted to mate the two together in the boiler.
This is the conversions Only downfall…
After more faffing and jiggery pokery I managed to get the hex end of the rod into the regulators hex socket, but there was clearly a major problem in height difference.
It turned out that the regulator mechanisms had to sit about 7mm higher in the Winson boiler to mate successfully with the rod, this means that the mechanisms sticks out the top of the boiler and is not supported as it only has air and the bendyness of the rod to sit on..
Screwing in the steam collector tube and banjo bolt from the other end confirmed this height difference. The mechanism worked perfectly except for the fact that I couldn’t seal the boiler with the inner dome cover anymore!
I investigate the height of the regulator in my boiler and came to the conclusion that the new Modelworks regulator was obviously sitting lower in the new boiler, although the banjo bolt at the smoke box end was at the same height as mine!

At this point I was extremely disappointed and was immediately on the phone to Modelworks to tell them about this problem, so if anyone else wanted to try this that they would need to do what I figured out I would need to do to make it work…(!)
More measuring and bad comparison drawings of the dome and inner dome came up with the answer that if I was able to make/get a brass ring the same diameter of the regulator hole and around 7mm high I would be able to raise the height of the boilers regulators hole to support the mechanism! The comparison and area drawings of the dome and inner dome showed that because there was so much material left in the dome I could get it machined out to fit the increase in height with out making any difference to the locos aesthetics!

Kricky, I’ve written a whole A4 page worth on this, if your still reading, Thanks!

Anyway, I was back on the phone to Modelworks and asked if they could make me a ring as described, the answer was yes…
MONTHS later after lots of phone calls and what I was told to be a Royal Mail delivery problems one turned up and even though this time one was supposedly sent by recorded delivery and one by normal delivery which one turned up… the standard packet!, god knows what was going on there, but anyway I finally had one and some gaskets all for free!
Taking a closer look I found the ring was in fact a standard ring made for the top of the boiler so it was perfect size, it even had the holes drilled in for bolting the dome cover down! After some non precision engineering style sanding/machining I got the ring down to around 6/7mm in height and nice and flat, don’t ask me how as you don’t want to know!
I was almost there, I fitted it on with plenty of gaskets and black paste, screwed and sealed everything else into the regulator system and finally bolted down the inner dome cover.
Finally after about 5 months of waiting and faffing from removing the old regulator it was done and apart from some fettling of the valve and arm alignment it was ready to test.
Now after some good amount of steamings it has proved to be very successful, sealing off properly every time with no steam leaks anywhere along the system and very user friendly, although it does need a bit getting use to at first as it can be very sensitive!
I will post some pictures if anyone is interested!

Part 2 will be posted soon, possibly tomorrow,
Happy Reading,

Steve

[sjtown]

I have just done a diagram of the regulator system by basically editing a mixture of Model Works and Winsons drawings, if anyone wants parts numbers and details on whats what let me know and I will tell you what I can!

Its a fairly large picture so click below to view it, rather then forcing everyone to load it by putting it in the thread!
ashfordminis.icukhosting.com/Files/1400RegMW2WSN.jpg


Steve

[sjtown]

Part 1.5!....

Valves, Valve Chest, Timing and Reverser Bits!
The first sign of problems with the valves came from the pistons…what I mean is with steam going directly up the chimney and having read other articles on the net we came to the conclusion that the valves weren’t seating properly allowing steam to by pass the cylinders. As it turned out this wasn’t that case, although it does happen now and again, it was the pistons o-rings having worn flat…. but that’s all to come.
While we were attempting to fix the valve seating problem not knowing it was the pistons I emailed and rang ModelWorks to see what they could tell me.
I was sent a long email with details on different bits, timing-in information and about they’re redesigned valves. I say redesigned but in fact they are now just made of cast iron instead of brass and narrower to reduce the valve lap ( which the original builder of mine had already done after talking to ModelWorks and they just happened to be the same size of the new ones!)
While I had the piston and valve chest apart I cleaned up the inside and made sure it was flat and smooth, doing the same with the new valves. I also took on board ModelWorks suggestion to scrap the original long bolt and nut means of holding the pistons and valve chest together, and drill & tap the current holes to allow the use of 2BA (I think) cap head screws from both sides. This modification allows easier removal of the valve chest, saving you from removing the pistons as well, although I still can’t see how you can get a good seal once put back in between the pistons as there’s NO room for movement or sliding into position whatsoever! Only time will tell, fingers crossed I wont have to but it’s handy to have the option.

The valve rods which connect to the valve buckle holding the valves are also of a bad design problem. I have not done anything to them as I haven’t had to touch any of the motion since receiving it, oh except having to take the big ends off the crank and fix the reverser arm and rod movement! The design problem is an alignment issue where the rods come out the back of the valve chest and both then have to bend in Like this…. \ / … but obviously not so dramatic! This does in one way aid sealing in the valve chest as it’s pushing the valves out on to the pistons valve chest face, but obviously at this angle does do much for sealing with o-rings and possibly metal fatigue in the long run!
The timing on this loco is notoriously difficult to get bang on or even close if your miles out! The timing is set by adjusting the position of the valve rod extensions with two nuts on each valve rod on each piston! This takes AGES especially if you have none or just 2 badly places cylinder cocks (like mine!) and you must remember that if you set the timing by running on air it will still need adjustment once in steam! Once you have it turning over under its own power it won’t be even and may get slightly stuck at one point where the valve isn’t open early enough, this bit is even more tedious bit where the timing can go Almost bang on or totally out! You will need to take a guess or try and figure out which pistons is not getting pressure at the correct point and then move the nut/s to move the rod the correct amount. I cannot stress enough how little movement of the nuts you need to get the timing right. Half a turn can make a significant difference in running so don’t be to enthusiastic, its tedious and boring but if you’re got cylinder cocks it wont take as long, I had to do it the hard way!
I do have some instructions somewhere from Ian at ModelWorks on how to do it properly, if anyone wants them just leave a message and I will email/post them up.

The reverser again does its job allowing forward and reverse but not as well as it could. Winding the reverser away from full forward or full reverse does not aid running like it does on the real thing, it just puts the timing out, which from the small experience I have of other locos and information I have been given, is not much of a surprise as on many models it doesn’t work like the real thing.
This isn’t as problem as such, the problem I found was with the reversers linkage connections. Where the reverser arm connects on to the weightshaft its secured with a simple grub screw, this does not hold up well, especially if it has been allowed to move and has worn on the weightshaft where it has been originally done up. This results in you turning the reverser in the cab but the arm simple slipping on the weightshaft and catching at particular points meaning it will not reach full forward or reverse, therefore not allowing the timing to be in the right place.
The second problem is identical to the previous, but this time it is one or both of the lifting arms slipping on the weightshaft instead, due to the same loose grub screw effect! If only one is slipping this create an interesting situation where you have to pull up the Expansion link now and again or when changing direction with the fire rake, (well that’s what’s closest to hand!!) in an attempt to get the correct timing and valve movement!
This resulted in me soldering these on to each other to stop movement, which, up until now has held up well!

More to come...

Steve

[Phil Sutton]

Hi Steve,reading the above,I would think that you have a Mk1 1400.Mine is of the second batch,the "99" batch.A freind of mine is building the Modelworks version.He has had little or no problems whatsoever,and by the way he was going,he'll have his steamed,painted and running before me.
However,there were many problems with the first batch,and you seem to have covered most of them,(except for the leaking boilers).By the time the 99 batch was introduced,most of the prolems were solved,but hey,new batch,new problems!
These for me were,
Dimples in the piston head drilled on the wrong face,(easy cure, this)
Valve rods too long,(shorten same and re thread the altered end)
Lousy machining on crank/eccentrics,(returned to Winsons,for remachining and fettling)
Slot in the curved link had rounded ends,(filed square and made as long as possible)
Exhaust manifold bolt holes in wrong place,(whole manifold needs sorting,working on this)
Lubricator drive u/s,(have bought new lubricator drive with ratchet, to fit)
Smoke box door did not fit,warped out of shape!(Winson's sent new one)
Various other bits need sorting,and detail improvements are being sorted,(cab side steps to right position,beading to fit ect.)
Will let you know about others as I bring them to mind!

Phil

[sjtown]

Leaky boilers... that sounds like a fantastically terrible problem...
I haven't had any problems with my boiler but talking to a boiler inspector about getting mine retested, he informed me that many of these boilers have had they're stays which run across the top of the firebox pushed down (!!), as the regulator rod fouled them when pushed through or wouldn't even go in all together...

As far as I remember mine are fine, and I think I would have noticed!, but he told me this just after I finally got my ModelWorks Regulator in so I'm not so sure!

Do you know anything about this?

Steve

[Phil Sutton]

If your regulator rod went in ok,then I don't think you need worry,as I sure you would have noticed any fouling or tightness as you were assembling all the bits and pieces inside the boiler.Did you manage to drop any nuts inside? They are stainless,hence non magnetic,you want to try turning the whole loco upside down and trying to shake the damn things out!
The boiler probs I heard of were leaking seams and stays and water glass fittings not brazed in at the same angle,hence glass not fitting,or breaking.
The gauge glass fittings on my back head have been drilled wrongly,but a short extension pipe should sort that out,a little turning job in the new lathe, I think.

Phil

[mott]

Steve, A very interesting thread going here. On pistons what are the purpose of the dimples on the piston face. Mine face forward but what do they do? The 0 ring business is still to come in your article but I am findng the 0 rings very sticky despite lubrication. I am contemplating scrapping the 0 ring in favour of cast iron rings and making new pistons since the present ones will have the wrong dimensions for the groove.The clear view at my club is that cast iron rings are best. I am going to attempt to run on air this weekend and see how the 0 rings do.
Your comments on timing the valves is a bit terrifying. I can time slide valves on outside cylinders but how do you do it on inside valves? If you have any thing you can let me have , would be most grateful. Mott

[Phil Sutton]

Hi Mott.The dimples are there so you can unscrew the piston head and replace the O rings when they wear out,and then screw them back on again,without dismantlling all the valve gear and cylinders.Just remove the front buffer beam,unbolt the cylinder end covers and unscrew the piston heads(I used a pair of needle nosed pliers,crude,I know,but it works)and Bob's your uncle.Errr.......you didn't locktite the piston heads on to their shafts did you....?
I'm sure that there are instructions on setting the valve gear some where in all the bumpf that Winsons/Modelworks send with the kits,but a visit to your local library may turn up some M.E.books,or even something on 12" to the foot railways.Failing that,a visit to your local M.E.S.will find someone willing to help.Or even a post on the General Topics will get you somewhere.
I used Winsons instructions,and guess what? worked first time,for once!Needed a little tweaking though.
Go for it,you may be surprised.

Phil

[sjtown]

Guys,

Still haven't written bits on pistons etc as its still driving me mad!
Honed my bores out for second time recently as they still seemed ruff. From reading bits on o-rings the measurements of the bore seemed to be compressing the o-rings to much, increasing the wear on the o rings, reducing running time before new ones are needed.
So with smooth bores an less squashing of the o-rings they should last longer... erm not really, after a few 'hectic' runs on my rolling road they have already worn out... not happy.

I'm pretty sure a major contributor to this problem is lubrication but with the basic ratchet oil pump you don't get much oil to wear its needed and i cant see any other way of getting oil in... HELP!!

The other option I have thought about is Cast Iron rings, as mentioned by others, but this would need the bores boring, new pistons made and rings sorted for them as well... all of which I cannot do!! The other problem with cast iron rings is I'm guessing good alignment is needed and I'm not 100% confident in the alignment of the pistons with the rest of the motion!

I'm going over to a local and rather substantial 5" ground level railway tomorrow to see if any one else has any ideas and to have look at the progress of my mates Model Works 1400!

If anyone's got any suggestions or in-sites to the piston wear problem please advise!!! Will put some pics up of the pistons and bores sometime.

Steve

[SteveW]

Steve,
It occurs to suggest something I saw on the old news group about using 'O' rings. I've not been following this thread, just found it, so sorry if its a repeat.

The advice was that the rings have to be in grooves wide enough for the ring to roll back and forth a bit and certainly not exact size of the ring. The other was bore finish. It got to be really good more polished than honed.

Another point with ratched operated oilers is that the stroke has to be good enough to pick up every time. The club traction engines pump runs off the valve gear drive and only actually pumps in full 'gear'. The club loco uses a clutch drive and that always drives from a little to lots.

It's worth routinely checking the chimney for soot. No soot = no oil.

Finally, our club wizard added a plug to pre-fill the valve chests (and post fill) with steam oil. The post fill has removed the tendancy to sieze during the longer lay-ups. Iron cylinders and rings plus condensed steam needs a bit of help. 'O' rings don't like rusty bores either.

[sjtown]

All,

Some pics of my pistons and bore...
First one will load below, click links to view others, saves loading all of them on one page!

IMAGES REMOVED FROM SERVER - Ask for copys

Worn o-ring

Next two pics are the same piston, just look at the nasty machining....open them both and compare the two!

The other piston with a new o-ring in it...


Complete piston with not very nice rod...


Piston head with those dimples for removal, this is the piston with the NEW o-ring in it... cant see much of it...


O ring removed from piston shown with new o ring form above picture, you can clearly see the wear pattern


Another edge of the same o ring


One of the Bores...


Ok so can you can see how not very good they are so I am now in need of someone to make me some new pistons to take O rings or some pistons with cast iron rings, plus I will probably need the bores polishing up a bit!

If anyone is able to do this or know of some one / people can they please let me know ASAP.

Plus any views on the above pic will be very helpful!

Steve

[mott]

Steve, it all looks rather gruesome. You can buy cast iron rings 1 1/4" bore from Reeves and also piston blanks. You will obviously need someone with a lathe who can ensure concentricity in the work but given sharp tools it shouldn't be too difficult to machine up the blanks and put in the grooves for the piston rings. The Manual of Model Steam locomotives Construction deals with the subject. Mott

[Andy Clark]

Dear all

There's a whole are of this Modelworks board for posting pics. Can I recommend posting as much as you like there pic wise. That will keep this thread mainly text based, leaving the other thread for those that have higher speed connections and are happy to download the bigger payloads.

Keep up the good work on consolidating a helpful list of issues and sharing ideas on resolution - that's what this board is for!

Andy

[PeteT]

Shredded a few O rings in my wife's Winson 1400 with the original bores in 1999, before convincing Winson of the need to hone bores. With honed bores used to get about a year out of the O rings before excessive blow by. From purist point of view, you really cannot achieve sufficient of a polish on cast iron for long life with O rings, but they can be made to work and don't break as easily as iron ones (when fitting). Previous advice on the list about importance of bore finish and room for the ring to roll in the groove is quite correct (groove specs are available, but make sure you look at the right one for a sliding piston application).

However I got fed up with changing O rings and fitted a further set of pistons and iron rings (made to suit the existing honed bores) and things have been fine for the last couple of years or so - water consumption is significantly lower, but then the pistons do now fit the bores.

Pete T.

[SteveW]

Steve,
The 'O' ring groove does look a bit tight and your bores aren't brilliant (or is it just the photo?). There also seems to be too much flattening on the ring as if either:
1. the piston is too small for the bore and is forcing the 'O' ring to provide the centring force and not simply providing a sliding seal. Maybe the crosshead is a little lax and driving the ring into the bore.
2. The 'O' ring is just too big for the bore (see url below)

I also note longitudinal grooves in the piston which I guess shouldn't really be there and may suggest some form of grot getting in there or just simply a lubrication problem.

Re my suggestion on the groove needing to be wider than the ring to allow it to roll. I've just found this useful link: www.marcorubber.com/glands_dynamic_reciprocating.htm

I think I'll go read more on this link

[sjtown]

Thanks for the info so far guys,
I have spent the last couple of days (on and off) taking the loco down to the frames, again, to check the slide bar level and alignment, and after some measuring and hammering (!) all seems ok...
The hammering involved a bit of iron mongering, as on taking apart the second of the two slide bars, left when looking from the front (if that matters!), I found the bottom bars resembled a banana, boomerang or some other curvy roller coaster style, non straight design...
So after some heating up, vice squashing and gentle tapping I got them nice and straight and flat..

Anyway, everything seems happy and level with minimal movement within the slide bars as there was a significant amount before (which may have been my fault, but I'm not sure), so hopefully with my slight modifications the piston problems should be better.

I also removed the pistons from the frames for a clean and quick inspection, all seems as well as it can be, nice amount of oil in the valve chest so oiling should'nt be as much as a problem as I first thought, well not recently any way!

On to the main reason I have posted,
I have decided to go with Cast Iron Piston rings, (hence removing them from the frames), but I need someone to make new pistons with cast iron rings and rods and sort out the piston bores to suit....
Is anyone (or know of anyone who would be) able to do this for me, money isn't really an issue as it needs to be done...

I may post this plea for help in the General chat area as well as I really need to find someone to do this for me, as I cant do it myself and cant really do anything else with the loco, except put it all back together and have to change the o-rings after every run!

Waiting in anticipation!

Steve

[Alan]

Hi
have you found someone to do your pistons and rings yet. im a bit busy myself but i am reasonably local. Broadstairs


Alan

[sjtown]

Alan,
No I haven’t yet, been trying to find some of the magazines and have a look in the back of them, but strangely had very little luck getting hold of any!
If you could help I would be very grateful!

Steve