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Post by nutta on Feb 19, 2011 9:48:30 GMT
Hi Im new to model steam traction engines and have just brought a 3" freelance to play with in the summer.
I dont want to join the local club as i find them a bit cliccy and only want to do trains, but i do need a boiler check. the next nearest club is miles away.
I have a friend in the club who does the testing and he says he will do it with his mate as a witness, who like me is not a member of the club. Can i get away with this for insurance purposes, i think the club will get funny once they find out its been done. Am i right in saying that once the ticket is done, that is all the contact i have to have with that club.
I intend to play with my traction engine just this year and sell it to help purchase a yacht next year. Thanks for your thoughts
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2011 9:54:11 GMT
Can i get away with this for insurance purposes, i think the club will get funny once they find out its been done. Am i right in saying that once the ticket is done, that is all the contact i have to have with that club. Our annual membership is only £15, and boiler tests are free to members. Nothing personal, but we do our best at our club to spot (and sometimes exclude) the 'boiler test only' members! JB
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Post by nutta on Feb 19, 2011 10:02:04 GMT
but its only a bit of paper and my friend will do it for free( a beer).The question is, if a non member witnesses the test, is it legal. I would become a member, if they would let me steam my traction engine in their field, but all thet want is train builders
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redmog
Part of the e-furniture
Not Morgan weather
Posts: 461
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Post by redmog on Feb 19, 2011 10:26:04 GMT
but its only a bit of paper and my friend will do it for free( a beer).The question is, if a non member witnesses the test, is it legal. According to - 'THE EXAMINATION & TESTING OF MINIATURE STEAM BOILERS' quote - Witness: The witness shall be a member of the Society/Club, shall not be the owner of the boiler and should preferably also have a sound knowledge of the design and construction of small boilers. So I read that as - not legal. And I think the Club would be in breach of regulations of the - MIDLANDS FEDERATION OF MODEL ENGINEERING SOCIETIES NORTHERN ASSOCIATION OF MODEL ENGINEERS THE 71/4" GAUGE SOCIETY LTD SOUTHERN FEDERATION OF MODEL ENGINEERING SOCIETIES and therefore not covered by insurance. The boiler inspector is not conforming to the regulation requirements and therefore should not be a boiler inspector. But there are people on here who are more knowledgeable about boiler inspection than myself and hopefully they will respond. Chris.
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Post by baggo on Feb 19, 2011 10:49:17 GMT
The 'Blue Book' also states that the person presenting the boiler for examination shall be members of the club/society under whose name the boiler is to be examined/tested.
In other words, the boiler inspector acts on behalf of the club of which he is a nominated boiler inspector, and, as I see it, he can only test boilers for members of the same club. He can't do it 'freelance', especially if he is going to be using the clubs boiler certificates which have the clubs name on.
To be honest, sounds like this boiler inspector should be banned from carrying out tests if he is prepared to break the rules like he obviously is.
We had a chap at our club (he was a member) who kept bringing different boilers for test at regular intervals. Our inspector got a bit suspicious and it turns out the chap was buying and selling locos, traction engines etc. and just using the club to get certificates. Needless to say, he was told to 'sling his hook' !
John
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kwil
Part of the e-furniture
Posts: 383
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Post by kwil on Feb 19, 2011 11:13:02 GMT
If nutta want his boiler tested then he could always ask his insurance company who they recommend!
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Post by nutta on Feb 19, 2011 11:15:42 GMT
But who cares if the club is in breach of the regulations and what penalties can be done if they are caught. It a free bit of paper!
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Post by nutta on Feb 19, 2011 11:29:07 GMT
what does a boiler inspector have to do to be able to examine boilers. Is their an examination to be passed or does his mates just vote him into office.
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Post by alanstepney on Feb 19, 2011 11:34:57 GMT
It is illegal.
1. In the event of an accident, the examiners could be held liable. 2. No insurance company would accept the certificate. 3. The clubs insurers wouldnt accept it either.
No insurance= no running in public and liable to risk if running in private.
So, just try getting a mate to write out a piece of paper saying you have an MOT on your car. Then see what "officialdom" says about it.
You want a free bit of paper, just print one yourself. It wont be worth anything, but wont cost either!
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Post by nutta on Feb 19, 2011 11:35:04 GMT
Kwil, just read your post. I went down that route and the nearest wants £85 first visit £70 subsequent visitsand he cant get to me for 3 weeks, so a pint is a cheaper solution. The previos owners club didnt want to know unless i joined them, but they 2 1/2 hours away
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jasonb
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,209
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Post by jasonb on Feb 19, 2011 11:40:44 GMT
You are basically asking your mate to act as an independant boiler inspector, He probably does not have public indemnity insurance if something is wrong with the boiler he passes and no insurance co will honour whatever form of certificate he issues. This is a list of independant inspectors, best contact the one nearest to you or ask your intended insurer to suggest an inspector who dealks with miniatures. www.ntet.co.uk/owners-drivers/insurance-services#independent-boiler-inspectorsJ Edit just read your last post. Thats not a bad price given the guys traveling time, actual time testing, his overheads. Also an independant inspector will have all the required equipment for testing (is your mate using club stuff) he will also be able to test a steel boiler for wasting and may well have a small camera to look inside the boiler. He will be able to suggest any remedial work required and give you a care plan for teh comming years. Why are you in such a rush, you wern't silly enough to buy an engine without a current cert were you? As for a pint being a cheaper solution it may well cost you a lot more if you have an accident and no valid cert as you will have to pay any claims against you.
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Post by Boadicea on Feb 19, 2011 11:52:56 GMT
As the others have said, boiler inspectors are nominated by their club. No, they do not have to pass exams. However, they are, in my experience, competent and most have made their own boilers. The clubs have a discipline to responsibly certify boilers and are cognisant of the fact we all may lose this facility if it is not done properly. They certify boilers according to the rules. You have to be a member of a society for the boiler certificate to be valid, the inspector and witness also. You do not say where you want to use the boiler - if you just want to use it yourself at home there is no need to certify. By the tone of your post, you seem to have some issue about clubs and boiler inspectors. No problem in joining a club, getting certified and not going there for the remainder of the year, providing you remain a member. If you join you will find it good value - not only do you get your boiler certified but you get public liability insurance. Although you might think boiler certification is a chore, you will be sitting next to it and it is you will get injured, for the most part. If an issue is pointed out by a boiler inspector, in my experience it is always valid. I have witnessed many and have seen some pretty crappy boilers tested and criticisms have always been valid, even though the owner may not like it and thinks people are over-reacting Additionally, you say you will be selling next year - you will find the value far greater if it has 3 years hydraulic certification left and a renewed steam certificate for a year.
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Post by alanstepney on Feb 19, 2011 17:20:36 GMT
In clubs, there are always two people who examine boilers. One the nominated "inspector" the other the "witness". One (at least) will have an engineering qualification, and both must have experience of boilers, their construction and maintainance.
They act for the club which, in turn, is an "agent" for the insurance company that provided the clubs insurance policy. That covers all the club activities including public liability and insurance of all members boilers.
So, the boiler inspector(s) / witness will have both knowledge and experience. In addition, in the event of an accident, they can be held liable if their testing wasnt as the requirements. So, yes, they take it seriously.
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Post by fostergp6nhp on Feb 19, 2011 17:27:16 GMT
To the OP. Where are you based? and there are only 2 ways of getting valid boiler test certs; 1, join a club and have it tested thro the club. 2, get an independant inspector to come and test it. If the boiler is steel the hydraulic cert is valid for 2 yrs and the steam cert is 1 year. If the boiler is copper the hydraulic cert is valid for 4 yrs and again the steam test is annual.
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Post by nutta on Feb 19, 2011 18:18:27 GMT
Bit of a can of worms but i think i have the answer. I can 'sell' the traction engine back to the person i brought it off, he can get it boiler tested and then 'lend' it back to me.
My way is simpler, qiuck test by my friend, done over the weekend. How will anybody find out. even the club officials will be too pround to be able to do anything, its just embarrasing to have their club name on my certificate
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Post by Boadicea on Feb 19, 2011 18:35:10 GMT
OK - have it your way, but when you have the certificate in your hand it will have the worth of the piece of paper Neville Chamberlain had and not be valid because you are not a club member. If something happens, the HSE will refer back to the inspector and club issuing the certificate and they will disown you. If you visit another club, they will want to see your boiler certification AND proof of public liability insurance. Signing off on this one now.
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Post by The Red Baron on Feb 19, 2011 18:49:38 GMT
It would seem as though a highly irresponsible person is going to be in charge of a potentially lethal piece of apparatus - I certainly hope that you do not have the same attitude to motoring or electrics.
I would strongly recommend that if you have children, family or pets that you keep them WELL AWAY amd only injure yourself in the case of an accident
BTW Well chosen nick
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Post by fostergp6nhp on Feb 19, 2011 20:47:21 GMT
I have corrected my typo above, i knew it was 4 years but hit the wrong key by mistake and did not check what i had typed before posting my reply.
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Post by mutley on Feb 19, 2011 23:28:14 GMT
Be warned some events/clubs now want to also see club memberships cards with a club boiler ticket to check validity. No club membership card no play.....
Andy
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NickM
E-xcellent poster
Posts: 230
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Post by NickM on Feb 19, 2011 23:59:08 GMT
I think Mr 'Nutta' is yanking our chain gentlemen.
I think he and his friendly 'boiler inspector' will get their just desserts when someone from the issuing club notice that a non-member has been issued a boiler certificate - it wouldn't be long before my club noticed and started asking some serious questions!
I guess he probably doesn't bother with insurance on his car either!
With a bit of luck he will get the hint and go back under his bridge and stop bothering us!
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