Revision of Blue Book

[pault]

Hi All
My experience based outside model engineering is that the WSE is created by the boiler inspector/competent person. You cannot have a universal scheme because we do not have a universal boiler that fits everything. Therefore a scheme needs to be written to suite each boiler, as a result it could not be included in the blue book. Clearly within a club the same scheme would probably cover a number of locos, however there would still be boilers that would need their own unique WSE as they are totally different to the rest.
What is inexcusable is the information vacuum that has been created and the fact that boiler inspectors can be placed in a difficult situation as a result. Looking at this simplistically the feds have stated that a revised book would be released on the 1st Jan 2013. By implication the old book becomes obsolete at the same time. Therefore if we continue with the old book without being told too we are testing to an out of date code, which should it be brought up in court after an incident could make things awkward at best. If the new book is not ready the clubs at least need official direction as to where they stand.
The Feds have represented “us” collectively and initially provided a unified and structured test regime which worked. Instead of leaving some things relatively loosely defined and allowing boiler inspectors to fill in the detail they have continued to tweak and add to the original to make the text cover everything possible. It was not broken but they keep fixing it.
A typical example is the new “test superheaters if practical”. It is not practical in very many cases so most won’t bother. Having had superheaters fail on a number of occasions there has never been any risk to the driver or public. In some cases it is actually difficult to detect a failed element as the reason for poor steaming. Since there is very minimal risk created by failure of an element who and what is the test designed to protect. It is a different matter is you are talking full size, but even in 15” it can be difficult to detect.
Regards
Paul

[nonort]

Many thanks to you all and a Happy New Year to all.
It would seem that the mist is rising on this rather tetchy subject. All I wanted to know was that I wasn't the only one in the dark.
I still believe that the Southern Fed have made a glaring error on their website. Which should be open and encouraging the model engineering of steam engines and other forms of modeling. It is after all the shop window of model engineering in the South of England. It also has to be remembered that the website is visible globally. If the issue of complying with PSSR is so imperative. Why is there a four roll over period it would seem we are at least eleven years behind anyway. If my experience of boiler inspecting is anything to go buy most members will not be able to find the WSE after a year in any case, let alone the Blue Record Card that we all ready have. For heavens sake lets do it now, get it right and stop this continual interference every five minutes. Also can we get a proper terms of reference for the so called MELG. There would seem to have been a bit of empire building going on. Mr Wally Pearson named as the engineer? presumably when he passes on the name will have to be changed on all the paper work yet again. If pault is right then the boiler test code that we have been using is unfit for purpose and not worth the paper its written on. So we will have been open to litigation from the introduction of PSSR 2000? I again point out that the test code has to be 'fit for purpose' not necessarily 'best practice'. As all of these things will ultimately be tried in a court of law perhaps the MELG should inquire how they stand as authors of this document if it should come to court.

[Deleted]

In the words of Corporal Jones, "Don't panic!" No-one has told us that the blue book has been withdrawn, so we will keep working to it until until the new test code (green book) arrives. Even when it does arrive, annual steam test certificates will continue to be issued using the 2006 paperwork, for up to four years hence.

My personal view is that we already comply with the PSSR, because the blue book is a generic written scheme of examination, and the PSSR doesn't imply that the WSE has to be specific to an individual boiler.

As for Wally Pearson, who drew up the new test code, Southern Fed news says that he is resigning at the AGM in March. Where that leaves us is anybody's guess.

[Tony K]

Jan 3, 2013 12:44:46 GMT nonort said:

....I still believe that the Southern Fed have made a glaring error on their website. Which should be open and encouraging the model engineering of steam engines and other forms of modeling. It is after all the shop window of model engineering in the South of England. It also has to be remembered that the website is visible globally. If the issue of complying with PSSR is so imperative. Why is there a four roll over period it would seem we are at least eleven years behind anyway.

Both NAME and SFed have very poor websites and I would not want them for my shop window.
I think the four year roll-over period is to accommodate the life of existing hydraulic certificates.
It makes sense to me to make the boiler code similar to PSSR where possible.
Whatever it is, we will have to comply and it is heartening to see "there aint much in it to worry about."

We have a code designed by a committee, why expect the result to be sensible? However, it would all be much easier to introduce if there had been a few sentences describing the aims of the update and what has changed and why. Success often hinges on communication and it is amazingly poor in this case.

I suspect the inbuilt arrogance and "knowledge is power" of some of those involved prevents this.

[pault]

Hi All
Below is copied a description of what a WSE must include taken from the HSE website. Since the document must include “an identification of the item of plant or equipment” and “Description of all the parts of the systems to be examined. This must include:
o all protective devices
o every pressure vessel
o every pipeline and pipework in which a defect might give rise to danger.
I can’t see how you can have a generic WSE, this seems fairly clear cut to me. At work we have 10 basically identical pressure systems each has its own WSE

A WSE is a document containing information about items of plant or equipment that form a pressure system, operate under pressure and contain a 'relevant fluid'. The user must define the scope and suitability of the WSE (with advice from a competent person if required), and the CP will draft the WSE. The following will be included:
2. Description of all the parts of the systems to be examined. This must include:
o all protective devices
o every pressure vessel
o every pipeline and pipework in which a defect might give rise to danger.
3. An identification of the item of plant or equipment. Unique identification numbers or descriptions may be used.
4. The nature of the examination required, including the inspection and testing to be carried out on any protective devices.
5. The preparatory work needed to allow the item(s) to be examined safely, eg:
o cooling down periods
o isolation procedures.
6. The maximum interval allowed between examinations.
7. The critical parts of the system which, if modified or repaired, should be examined before the system (or part) is used again.
8. The name of the competent person certifying the WSE.
9. The date of the certificate
Regards
Paul

[Boadicea]

So, a specific WSE, developed from a generic one. That should take 5 minutes to complete. No problem, unless people want to make it so.

[ejparrott]

So is this WSE going to be a Federation supplied form to fill in for each boiler, or is the boiler inspector going to have to sit down and write it out?

[Deleted]

Jan 4, 2013 9:13:11 GMT Boadicea said:

That should take 5 minutes to complete. No problem, unless people want to make it so.

I've encountered quite a lot of those people in my time (and attempted to persuade them otherwise, sometimes succeeding).

What was interesting was how most of them purported to work for, and were paid by, the rest of us!
JB

[GeorgeRay]

According to the NAME website the WSE on display there is basically a tick the boxes certificate. It is uniquely numbered and contains the details of the boiler it refers to. Which is why it doesn't actually pose a major problem to fill in. To see what it is likely to look like go to www.normodeng.org.uk/09_2012_Written_Scheme_120705.pdf.

[Boadicea]

Jan 4, 2013 10:23:23 GMT ejparrott said:

So is this WSE going to be a Federation supplied form to fill in for each boiler, or is the boiler inspector going to have to sit down and write it out?

No, he can stand up if he wants to.
Sorry ejp, just couldn't resist it, and I know it does not help.

For sure, there is nothing which generates more heat than this subject. I think we have to wait and hope it eventually dawns on someone to communicate this properly. I know I am being very trusting in assuming someone, somewhere, knows exactly how this will be implemented. Presumably things will come to a head by April, when there is a big bulge of steam tests as we all line up for the new season.

[russell]

All this makes be doubly glad I moved to France. :-)

Russell

[kwil]

Russell,
Are you saying that the French do not apply the EU Pressure Vessel Regulations? Now you do surprise me!!!!

[ejparrott]

Jan 4, 2013 15:01:59 GMT GeorgeRay said:

According to the NAME website the WSE on display there is basically a tick the boxes certificate. It is uniquely numbered and contains the details of the boiler it refers to. Which is why it doesn't actually pose a major problem to fill in. To see what it is likely to look like go to www.normodeng.org.uk/09_2012_Written_Scheme_120705.pdf.

That makes it easy then. I had visions of Inspectors having to write out reams of paper!

lol @ Boadicea

[Shawki Shlemon]

You must be great-full that your vision was wrong LOL ;D, if it was right you will find few if any putting their hands up to take the job on ( hard work , no pay , hated )

[Rex Hanman]

Yesterday I received information regarding the new test code from the Southern Federation. It was postmarked 4/1/13, ie 4 days after it is supposed to come into force.

It states, quote....

"The scheme will come into operation from the 1st January 2013. From that date old style boiler certificates may no longer be issued."

and

"The new scheme is to be introduced at the time of the next test, whether it is a hydraulic or steam test"

Last Sunday (6/1/13) we at Andover held our New Year steam up, a great day with something like 18 locos in steam. Four needed steam tests which were successfully completed and (old style) certificates were issued. According to the information on the NAME website the new certification is not required until the next hydraulic test.

If Southern Federation and Northern Association are both members of the Model Engineering Liason Group why are they not singing from the same hymn sheet?

Do we now have 4 members steaming with invalid test certificates?

Southern Fed are to issue 50 free copies of the new certificates and 50 free copies of the WSE. These can be ordered by post or collected at the forthcoming exhibition at Alexandra Palace. I'm going on the 19th. What are we supposed to do in the meantime?

I quote again...

"The Boiler Test Code forms part of the Written Scheme of Examination and as such is applicable to every single boiler. Under these circumstances it is therefore a requirement that every owner/user of a boiler should hold a copy of the Boiler Test Code."

Along with the 50 free copies of the certificates and the WSE, Southern Fed are to provide 3 (three) copies of the Boiler Test Code. What are we supposed to do with the other 47 certificates and WSE forms if they are no use without a copy of the code?

The situation is becoming more ludicrous every day!

[Deleted]

Jan 8, 2013 18:44:19 GMT Rex Hanman said:

The scheme will come into operation from the 1st January 2013. From that date old style boiler certificates may no longer be issued.

That can't be true, because it clearly didn't come into force on 1st January.

The new scheme is to be introduced at the time of the next test, whether it is a hydraulic or steam test

That can't be true either, see NAMES website:
www.normodeng.org.uk/
Go to "news and views", "notes of delegates meeting held on 6th October 2012" and scroll down to item 6.

What are we supposed to do with the other 47 certificates and WSE forms if they are no use without a copy of the code?

The 50 certificates won't necessarily go to 50 individuals! As there is no way of knowing how many individuals are involved, I guess each owner will have to buy his own copy. In the meantime, the club copy should be made available for all members to see.

I have to agree though, it's been a real shambles!

[Rex Hanman]

That can't be true either, see NAMES website:
www.normodeng.org.uk/
Go to "news and views", "notes of delegates meeting held on 6th October 2012" and scroll down to item 6.

That makes a lot of sense, and it is why we issued 4 steam tests using the old certificates.

I am simply quoting the information I have received from Southern Fed. I would be happy to post a copy of the letter but not sure if I would infringe any copyrights etc.

[Rex Hanman]

I have just checked the Southern Fed website. Under the section "Guidance" the SF information sheets can be viewed.

Information sheet 15 is not available! Duh!

[Nigel Bennett]

Dec 17, 2012 13:28:25 GMT ejparrott said:

Tell me this, why do the current forms have a printed number on them, and then 2 spaces where you have to write that number in again yourself?

I asked that question at a Boiler Tester's Seminar a year or two ago. Apparently it was just physically very difficult to do this - they tried, but the indexing of the numbering device every other time was so prone to error that they gave up and you have to get your pen out.

[peterseager]

Are you saying that the French do not apply the EU Pressure Vessel Regulations? Now you do surprise me!!!!

I took my Simplex to France to run at a French club track. Nearly got laughed at when I presented my Boiler Cert for inspection. Their view is that they sit behind the loco so they are going to make sure its safe.

Typical EU situation - they make the rules and we implement them.

Peter