|
|
Post by Roger on Dec 29, 2014 16:42:20 GMT
I've tried modifying the Aqua screen set, taking a couple of long evenings doing that. It's really not worth the effort in my opinion. The problem is that although you can change the position and behaviour of the buttons and dialogs, moving or resizing them doesn't affect the visual elements associated with them. To change anything properly, you have to rebuild the whole background and create your own button styles. I understand this has been put right with Mach4 but I've not had the opportunity to see if that's any better. I hope they've used something like Visual Basic or RAD Studio with proper 'Windows' event driven objects that encapsulate the visual as well as functional elements of each button or control.
Sadly it looks like they've just copied the same functions to the letter from Mach3 so it's still a junk default screen set. You'd think they would have taken the opportunity to prune it back and make a decent job of it. Oh well, once it's stable, I'll probably get it in the hope of modifying it to be how I like it, hopefully they won't have copied all the bugs too, but I wouldn't bank on it. They don't seem that competent to me.
|
|
|
|
Post by Doug on Jan 2, 2015 15:41:22 GMT
Started on making a spindle Rev counter I am going to use one of my Aurdrino boards, I have just ordered an LCD display. It's quite a simple program and circuit so it shouldn't take too long.
|
|
|
|
Post by Roger on Jan 2, 2015 15:43:51 GMT
Doesn't mach 3 have an input for that? Possibly not.
|
|
|
|
Post by Doug on Jan 3, 2015 8:33:37 GMT
Doesn't mach 3 have an input for that? Possibly not. That's very true I will adjust my plan to suit thanks for mentioning it :-) i need to get a hall effect sensor time for a trip to maplin  |
|
|
|
Post by Roger on Jan 3, 2015 9:20:24 GMT
You might want to consider using a sensor designed for picking up gear teeth, Allegro do a range of them. Hall effect sensors sense a magnetic field and in these special sensors, they embed a magnet into the device and look for the change in field created by a ferrous material passing in front of them. The sensing distance can be quite large, maybe 2mm or more. I used one of their products to sense a small hexagonal target that was held in the collet of a spindle under test. We sometimes needed to do that because not all spindles had tachos built in. Those ones are obsolete now, but there are others like this which might be suitable. Obviously this is not going to work if you only have an aluminium toothed pulley to use as a target. I was thinking of making a thin steel serrated disc to attach under the final drive pulley on mine. I'm assuming that Mach3 allows you to set the number of pulses per revolution it expects for the tacho. |
|
|
|
Post by Doug on Jan 3, 2015 11:47:25 GMT
You might want to consider using a sensor designed for picking up gear teeth, Allegro do a range of them. Hall effect sensors sense a magnetic field and in these special sensors, they embed a magnet into the device and look for the change in field created by a ferrous material passing in front of them. The sensing distance can be quite large, maybe 2mm or more. I used one of their products to sense a small hexagonal target that was held in the collet of a spindle under test. We sometimes needed to do that because not all spindles had tachos built in. Those ones are obsolete now, but there are others like this which might be suitable. Obviously this is not going to work if you only have an aluminium toothed pulley to use as a target. I was thinking of making a thin steel serrated disc to attach under the final drive pulley on mine. I'm assuming that Mach3 allows you to set the number of pulses per revolution it expects for the tacho. I have quite a few proximity sensors and a capacitive sensor (would work with aluminium or even wood) but I have been having a look at my burnt out motor collection and have found an encoder this is 5v which is perfect for the I/O board if I use the ref signal it only has one pulse per Rev it will work perfectly. I just need to get a 0.9mm Allen key as the shaft screws are this size. |
|
|
|
Post by Roger on Jan 22, 2015 13:48:07 GMT
Out of interest, I'm building a CNC control for a lathe that a customer has. He's supplied me with a box of parts that CNC4PC advised for him and it's proving to be a nightmare. I do wish people would ask before diving in the deep end, leaving me to pick up the pieces.
Anyway, the point of this post is that it ties in with the screwy behaviour that I've reported before about the spindle starting/stopping being flaky and illogical. In the case of this new system, it's completely messed up and doesn't work properly at all. In my correspondence with Arturo Duncan, it transpires that Mach3 outputs the speed to the PWM, and it's the presence of the PWM that turns on the relay to enable the drive. Obviously this only applies to those of us using the PWM output, there are other ways to turn on the relays directly and use a manually controlled speed.
In other words, if there's no PWM signal to give the analog voltage to the drive, the enable won't come on anyway. This is yet more illogical nonsense from Mach3. Enable should mean enable and you should be able to turn that on regardless of whatever the PWM voltage is.
So as it stands, the new system runs fine but the spindle doesn't turn on. I can manual click the spindle button or type M03 and nothing happens, even if the speed has previously been set to S500 for example. If I click to increase the speed or change it using the arrow buttons then hey presto, the spindle comes on.
Anyway, I thought this might shed some light on how the spindle can end up being switched on by an M03 or clicking a button and still not come on.
|
|
uuu
Elder Statesman
your message here...
Posts: 2,858
|
Post by uuu on Jan 22, 2015 17:34:58 GMT
I think this follows an attempt to squeeze the most out of the limited number of connections on the parallel port. If you have a separate spindle-enable and PWM, you're using two pins. If your breakout/spindle control board can imply the spindle on/off from the presence/absence of a PWM signal - which mine does perfectly - then you only need one.
Wilf
|
|
|
|
Post by Roger on Jan 22, 2015 21:25:58 GMT
I think this follows an attempt to squeeze the most out of the limited number of connections on the parallel port. If you have a separate spindle-enable and PWM, you're using two pins. If your breakout/spindle control board can imply the spindle on/off from the presence/absence of a PWM signal - which mine does perfectly - then you only need one. Wilf I'm sure you're right about economising on pins, that makes sense as an option when it's implemented properly. There's definitely something amiss with how Mach3 handles when the PWM is turned on an off though. I found another couple of forum posts with a slightly different problem, but still relating to Mach3 not always knowing what spindle speed is set. I'm still waiting back to hear from Arturo about his thought on it. There's always a hurdle to overcome to convince someone that there really is a problem when so many systems are out there working. For the time being, I've copied the two lines that set the spindle speed in the spindlespeed.m1s macro, and pasted them onto the end of the m3.ms1 macro and it now starts the spindle when it sees M3S500 in the program so that's progress. It still doesn't work in manual mode though. First you have to click Spindle, and the spindle light lights up on the screen. Then I have to type S500 on the MDI to actually start the spindle. If I click it off with the Spindle button, it doesn't come on again until I type S500. It's really screwed up. |
|
|
|
Post by andyhigham on Jan 22, 2015 21:58:24 GMT
I have Mach3 and a CM106ESS, The spindle motor has a PWM speed control and relay outputs for forward/reverse enable
|
|
|
|
Post by Roger on Jan 22, 2015 22:06:17 GMT
I have Mach3 and a CM106ESS, The spindle motor has a PWM speed control and relay outputs for forward/reverse enable That's what I have on the mill, and that works reasonably well. It is possible to catch it out sometimes if I intervene manually and stop the spindle though. |
|
uuu
Elder Statesman
your message here...
Posts: 2,858
|
Post by uuu on Jan 22, 2015 22:42:53 GMT
I suspect it's more by luck than judgement that mine works. I'm using a PMDX breakout board and spindle interface. I can start and stop in the program, in MDI, clicking the screen button, or F5. OK, when the program is first started the speed defaults to zero, but once it's set (in program, MDI, or typing direct into the speed readout) it retains that setting. As you do, I like to fine-tune the feed during a program run, and fine-tune the spindle, too, If things are getting a bit boring. I'd be really hacked off if misbehaved.
I do occasionally get caught out. If I pause a program part-way, and manually stop the spindle and move the axes - on restart, it will invite me to accept an axis restoration, but if I forget to restart the spindle it doesn't remind me.
Wilf
|
|
|
|
Post by Roger on Jan 23, 2015 8:28:26 GMT
Yep, I've done that too, but fortunately managed to jump on the E-Stop before I broke anything. I think the whole thing is unnecessarily complex and it's a minor miracle it works as well as it does. So far, it doesn't sound like Mach4 is solid enough to be worth trying so I'm steering clear for the time being.
|
|
|
|
Post by Doug on Jan 23, 2015 16:11:31 GMT
Out of interest, I'm building a CNC control for a lathe that a customer has. He's supplied me with a box of parts that CNC4PC advised for him and it's proving to be a nightmare. I do wish people would ask before diving in the deep end, leaving me to pick up the pieces. Anyway, the point of this post is that it ties in with the screwy behaviour that I've reported before about the spindle starting/stopping being flaky and illogical. In the case of this new system, it's completely messed up and doesn't work properly at all. In my correspondence with Arturo Duncan, it transpires that Mach3 outputs the speed to the PWM, and it's the presence of the PWM that turns on the relay to enable the drive. Obviously this only applies to those of us using the PWM output, there are other ways to turn on the relays directly and use a manually controlled speed. In other words, if there's no PWM signal to give the analog voltage to the drive, the enable won't come on anyway. This is yet more illogical nonsense from Mach3. Enable should mean enable and you should be able to turn that on regardless of whatever the PWM voltage is. So as it stands, the new system runs fine but the spindle doesn't turn on. I can manual click the spindle button or type M03 and nothing happens, even if the speed has previously been set to S500 for example. If I click to increase the speed or change it using the arrow buttons then hey presto, the spindle comes on. Anyway, I thought this might shed some light on how the spindle can end up being switched on by an M03 or clicking a button and still not come on. a quick answer to this is, I has the same issue and i found that the sindle default speed is zero so m03 will not start the spindle before a speed is entered into the control it then reverts to working ok as the speed is set in the register. so same experiance as uuu i also type the spindle speed into MDI and it then works fine both M03 and M05 |
|
|
|
Post by Roger on Jan 23, 2015 17:35:00 GMT
I don't think this is the same issue. If I have M03 S500 in the program it won't start the spindle. I can tell it to run over and over and it never starts the spindle. Even if I get the spindle to run by using the MDI to change the spindle speed, it doesn't start when I run the program again. The only way it starts is if the drive is first enabled with a valid RPM and then that RPM is changed.
|
|
|
|
Post by Doug on Jan 23, 2015 20:48:02 GMT
I don't think this is the same issue. If I have M03 S500 in the program it won't start the spindle. I can tell it to run over and over and it never starts the spindle. Even if I get the spindle to run by using the MDI to change the spindle speed, it doesn't start when I run the program again. The only way it starts is if the drive is first enabled with a valid RPM and then that RPM is changed. That sounds very odd, you are right I haven't had that issue. Do you have a drawing of the circuit diagram? The way I did mine is the enable circuit is connected to the relay and the PWM output feeds the 0-10v speed selection. i will check the software parameter selections as this is almost certainly where the issue lies. It took me ages playing with the parameters to get my spindle to work and other than the MDI speed selection first issue and forgetting to turn it on on restart I have had no issues at all, neither of which is the softwares fault really. |
|
|
|
Post by Roger on Jan 24, 2015 0:03:55 GMT
I don't think this is the same issue. If I have M03 S500 in the program it won't start the spindle. I can tell it to run over and over and it never starts the spindle. Even if I get the spindle to run by using the MDI to change the spindle speed, it doesn't start when I run the program again. The only way it starts is if the drive is first enabled with a valid RPM and then that RPM is changed. That sounds very odd, you are right I haven't had that issue. Do you have a drawing of the circuit diagram? The way I did mine is the enable circuit is connected to the relay and the PWM output feeds the 0-10v speed selection. i will check the software parameter selections as this is almost certainly where the issue lies. It took me ages playing with the parameters to get my spindle to work and other than the MDI speed selection first issue and forgetting to turn it on on restart I have had no issues at all, neither of which is the softwares fault really. It certainly is odd, Arturo and the Forum guys have never heard of it either. This always seems to happen to me for some reason. The board is rubbish in my opinion, it's a C32R5 which is enormous and complex yet doesn't seem to offer anything significant more that my cheap and cheerful CM106ESS does. They don't issue a circuit diagram and the instruction manual doesn't really give any clues as to what all the electronics does. One guy on the Forum says is might be an ESS issue. There's some merit in this idea because you have to set up the PWM and base frequency in the ESS config as well as in mach3. Maybe one of those should be disabled? Who knows. I've zipped up all the key files and sent them to the Forum guys and Arturo but I've got nothing back yet. Hopefully they will come back soon. It's all way too convoluted and unnecessarily complex. I'm a big fan of keeping things simple. My mill control was much easier to set up, but that still has the odd weird thing happening with the spindle. I can live with that, and doubtless I can bodge my way round this too but I shouldn't have too. It's supposed to be a mature product! |
|
|
|
Post by Doug on Jan 24, 2015 6:41:44 GMT
That sounds very odd, you are right I haven't had that issue. Do you have a drawing of the circuit diagram? The way I did mine is the enable circuit is connected to the relay and the PWM output feeds the 0-10v speed selection. i will check the software parameter selections as this is almost certainly where the issue lies. It took me ages playing with the parameters to get my spindle to work and other than the MDI speed selection first issue and forgetting to turn it on on restart I have had no issues at all, neither of which is the softwares fault really. It certainly is odd, Arturo and the Forum guys have never heard of it either. This always seems to happen to me for some reason. The board is rubbish in my opinion, it's a C32R5 which is enormous and complex yet doesn't seem to offer anything significant more that my cheap and cheerful CM106ESS does. They don't issue a circuit diagram and the instruction manual doesn't really give any clues as to what all the electronics does. One guy on the Forum says is might be an ESS issue. There's some merit in this idea because you have to set up the PWM and base frequency in the ESS config as well as in mach3. Maybe one of those should be disabled? Who knows. I've zipped up all the key files and sent them to the Forum guys and Arturo but I've got nothing back yet. Hopefully they will come back soon. It's all way too convoluted and unnecessarily complex. I'm a big fan of keeping things simple. My mill control was much easier to set up, but that still has the odd weird thing happening with the spindle. I can live with that, and doubtless I can bodge my way round this too but I shouldn't have too. It's supposed to be a mature product! Hi Roger The issue you have with the spindle is almost certainly not unfixable you shouldn't have to bodge it, and I have over the years had to work with a lot of different control systems way back to the very early ones with tiker tape readers and one line matrix displays, and IMO Mach 3 is not bad at all and for the price of it it's quite remarkable, yes it's not as good as a Heidenhain, Fanuc or Siemens but it is really only a cheap home use software. The one big feature I have found with it is its flexibility there are so many ways to "de fur a feline" that is both a boon and an Achilles heel. The spindle taken in isolation has at least 50 ways to configure it, this can introduce problems. I haven't quite got my spindle right yet either I still have some small tweaks to do as the drive gets energised during startup as the enable relay comes in and out (it needs routing through my estop/ drives on circuit ) suppose it takes time to rattle the loose problems out. On the bright side I have found an interesting feature I didn't expect, Screw mapping (what's called compensation tables in the real world) i didn't expect to find that. However I did check my backlash and scaling and now have it running to within 0.01mm just wish the machine was a bit stiffer as I am seeing some deflection under heavy cuts. |
|
|
|
Post by Roger on Jan 24, 2015 8:30:40 GMT
Hi Doug,
I agree whit pretty much everything you say really. I think my frustration is that they are hopeless at documenting each element of the system. There are a few tutorials on YouTube and that's about it. Most of the documentation on boards tells you nothing other than the names of the jumpers and pinouts but they never reveal the underlying drive electronics so you have no idea what the driver outputs are capable of.
I'm pretty sure my relays don't have that issue on the mill, but I think you're using a parallel interface. Have you used the charge pump? I thought that was supposed to keep everything de-energised during powerup. I think the ESS does that sort of thing internally but there's no documentation to say.
I've fitted a proper 24V safety contactor in my system, so E-Stop isn't a polite request, it removes the power from the drive electronics. It's an expensive way to do it, but it's the safest and what you'd have to do in industry.
It's frustrating that the machine isn't stiff enough, but at least you can achieve good accuracy with a final finishing cut. Mine's pretty good but it could always be stiffer. I try not to work with the quill hanging out any more than necessary. Fortunately, that neck extension doesn't seem to have any detrimental effect on the rigidity of the machine. Mind you, it's a solid piece of bar, so it's not going to flex much!
|
|
|
|
Post by Doug on Jan 24, 2015 11:24:49 GMT
Hi Doug, I agree whit pretty much everything you say really. I think my frustration is that they are hopeless at documenting each element of the system. There are a few tutorials on YouTube and that's about it. Most of the documentation on boards tells you nothing other than the names of the jumpers and pinouts but they never reveal the underlying drive electronics so you have no idea what the driver outputs are capable of. I'm pretty sure my relays don't have that issue on the mill, but I think you're using a parallel interface. Have you used the charge pump? I thought that was supposed to keep everything de-energised during powerup. I think the ESS does that sort of thing internally but there's no documentation to say. I've fitted a proper 24V safety contactor in my system, so E-Stop isn't a polite request, it removes the power from the drive electronics. It's an expensive way to do it, but it's the safest and what you'd have to do in industry. It's frustrating that the machine isn't stiff enough, but at least you can achieve good accuracy with a final finishing cut. Mine's pretty good but it could always be stiffer. I try not to work with the quill hanging out any more than necessary. Fortunately, that neck extension doesn't seem to have any detrimental effect on the rigidity of the machine. Mind you, it's a solid piece of bar, so it's not going to flex much! I didn't bother with a "charge pump" I have used a relay that energises the drives (somehow I have missed the spindle tho) it is a setup that is also borrowed from industry but rather than the expense of a full safety relay I used a standard one, supposed to do the same thing. I don't like the software estop for me an estop should de-energise the power/ enables off the drives. I don't want my safety relying on some flaky software so my estops are all hard wired, the program stops are left to stop the program only. i love the mod on your mill for me that's the perfect engineering solution it should look like it was built like that and it does. the best thing about the conversion on my mill has been the work I have been able to do it has not only paid for the conversion but the machine as well, the only reason I haven thrown it away and bought a bigger one is all the work I have put into it and I still find it useful so I can't really complain. For now I am sticking with it and might one day build a bigger one but I have some very nice loco's to build first. edit i have just checked and I did miss a wire it's now ok, my spindle enable goes through my "safety" relay as well as the board enable relay so double protection |
|
