Sieg X1L CNC Conversion

[Doug]

Sept 12, 2014 8:03:14 GMT Roger said:

There's also an anomaly when you turn the spindle on and off manually or with the M03 and S1000 for example on the MDI. Sometimes it enables the spindle but doesn't output an analog value so the spindle just sits there whistling. There are other things that aren't right too.
If you just run a program from start to finish it does behave itself though.

That's a pain I haven't put the spindle drive on yet so I have that fun to look forward to

[uuu]

I've not had that problem with the spindle drive. It works OK for me using M3/M5 commands in the loaded program, or from the MDI line, clicking the spindle startstop button, or even using the F5 keyboard shortcut.

Wilf

[Roger]

It's only happened a few times so I don't know the exact sequence. It's something to do with stepping or running into the program and then stopping the spindle using the button on the screen. Somehow in that process the analog value must get set back to zero. Using M03S2000 for example will get it going again.

I've also had a situation where I've homed the machine and then told it to move in one axis and it moved off in other axes too. It clearly doesn't correctly log the current position after homing as the same one it's sitting at when you command it to move in one axis. ie it thinks it's in a different position so moves the other axes to wherever it thinks it already is. It's just sloppy programming and shouldn't happen.

The Aqua set can also get confused about the cutter path that's displayed on the Run page compared to the Load page. I've seen it show the previous program on one and the new on the other. The refresh doesn't appear to synchronise them. There are other little anomalies that crop up from time to time but most aren't serious. It's nowhere near as solid as it should be for such a mature product.

[uuu]

All of this surprises me, as I've learned I can trust the program to do what it's told. Nor have I heard any complaints from John the Pump, who runs Mach3 as well.

Perhaps we have differences in set-up. I am not running the Aqua screen, I have a layout of my own devising (as does John). We have only parallel-port connections (me two and John one), no USB stuff. We both run an MPG connected to two parallel port pins, and a rotary XYZA switch using another two. John runs four axes, I only use three. John doesn't have homing or limit switches, I have one per axis, so I run the homing routine. We run steppers, not servos. John has no spindle speed control (just on/off), I do. John has air on/off, too. We both run a macro that I wrote, runs 5 times a second continuously, to monitor the position of the XYZA switch.

If the Aqua screen or USB systems have any add-in software or control routines, I'd start to look there for instabilities. Or perhaps it's your Smoothstepper interface.

I can understand consistently odd behaviour, like the pre-move the software proposes when you start a file part way through. But the wrong axis moves and spindle non-starts are just plain wrong. There's something going on.

Wilf

[Roger]

You only have to start digging in the Forums to find that all is not well with Mach3. If you restrict yourself to a consistent way of working and mostly run programs from end to end then you're unlikely to unearth these anomalies.
However, if you're a little more freestyle in the way you use your machine. and you expect a little more than basic functionality, then these things crop up. There are some users who resolutely refuse to upgrade to newer releases of Mach3 or the Smoothstepper plugin because each release seems to break something that used to work. The problem is that it was never intended to be as complex as it's ended up, it's a hobby machine. Unfortunately the writer seems to have caved in to too many requests for added features, and they appear to have been nailed on willy nilly. The result is a horrendously complex interface of which only a tiny percentage is used by any one application and these bugs have crept in. The guy who created it has sold the company and moved on, and I'm not sure that anyone there knows enough about how it all works to do anything with it. I think this is why they're trying to move on to Mach4 but it's been coming soon for years which sounds alarm bells in my head. My guess is that they're trying to encompass all of the features already in Mach3 and that's one hell of a task. They would do far better to come up with a basic version that does the bulk of the functions that most people use and get that out there. As I've said several times before, I don't think they will ever release it so we're stuck with what we've got unless a new product comes along. I was hoping that the CNC Brain was going to fill that gap, but that looks like it's stalled for the forseeable future.

[uuu]

You seem to be contradicting yourself if you want a new program that's a "basic version that does the bulk of the functions" then criticise the current program when it's fine unless you're "freestyle" with it and "expect a little more than basic functionality".



Wilf

[Roger]

I didn't put that very well did I! What I was trying to say was that I don't think all the bells and whistles are necessary but a basic machine should be bullet proof. In other words, If I choose to interrupt a basic machine during a program, move it with a MDI or MPG, start and stop the spindle etc, I don't expect it to misbehave when I restart it for example. If I home the machine, I think it's fair to then be able to go freestyle and say use an MPG to machine something as if I had a manual machines. These are all fundamental basic function that just don't work flawlessly on Mach3.
If you limit the range of things you do and don't vary it then it works tolerably well.
As soon as you add multiple machine offsets and axis versions, scaling factors and heaven knows what else, you need to have a very rigorous programming mentality and test regime. For example, there are no interlocks to prevent you pressing any buttons on the interface while the program is running. It's perfectly happy to let you try to open another program while it's running another one. It's fundamentally unsound to let the user do things that have unpredictable effects. In my opinion it's a sloppy piece of code that's full of holes but it works if you don't do something it doesn't expect.
When I designed the CNC control for the PCB drilling and routing machine, my boss would take great pleasure in breaking it and exposing loopholes where the machine could be tied in knots. It made me look at programming and machine control in a very different light. You have to assume that the user can and will do anything if it's going to be bullet proof. Mach3 seems to have been designed with the idea that everyone will do things the way that the programmer assumed they would, and that's a dangerous mentality.

[vulcanbomber]

Sept 12, 2014 8:03:14 GMT Roger said:

There's also an anomaly when you turn the spindle on and off manually or with the M03 and S1000 for example on the MDI. Sometimes it enables the spindle but doesn't output an analog value so the spindle just sits there whistling. There are other things that aren't right too.
If you just run a program from start to finish it does behave itself though.

9 times out of 10 if you put G97 S1000 M3 into the Colchester Tornado Lathe I use to work using MDI it would fire the suds up as well... Fantastic when the doors open and the turret station it had on station was empty. Probably empty the tank in 20 seconds doing that.

[sncf141r]

Roger and others - I know I sound like a broken record, but gosh, I have no trouble with LinuxCNC. Yes, it is not as visually nice, nor as easy to configure(*), but the designers are putting their time into making it reliable, as some of the interesting machines they drive require reliability! (i.e., factory machines, and not just mills - I saw an interesting video of a CNC lathe turning out wooden soles for italian women's shoes!)

My take on this is that:
Mach3 is for hobbyists, tinkerers, and/or the computer-challenged who know Windows;
LinuxCNC is for hobbyists, industrialists, and those who want the machine to just do what it should, and who will use what tools are available.

My next mill is coming together nicely, when I get a chance to get into the workshop. I'm putting it together solely to help me create model locomotives, not to say "hey, look - I've got a CNC machine!".

I did have one issue with CNC machine #1; the X axis would slowly "creep" and it turned out to be a known problem with a Gecko G540 controller, not LinuxCNC focused. Whew.

I'm not sure what's up with Mach4. Art Fennerty (fellow Canadian) took LinuxCNC (called EMC back then) and packaged it up with a very well written parallel port driver and sold it as Mach(1,2,3). (at least that's what the archive of EMC emails including Arts' say). What Art did (make W95 and XP run as a sub-process of his parallel port driver) can't be done anymore on Windows 7/8/? so the very solid/adaptable parallel port connector is being pushed aside by Mach3/4 users. Art is producing a product called Gearotic now - if you want to design and machine geared mechanisms, it's of interest to you. How Brian and company are doing with Mach4 is open to interpretation, but, boy, like Roger, the continued delays does not give confidence that the product will be stable on release.

*PLEASE* don't take the above as a flame, or criticism, or in any way negative. People should be able to pursue whatever aspects of this hobby we choose; e.g., we have a gentleman who's hobby is rebuilding machinery to better than new, and is very adept at hand scraping - good for him, and for all others doing what they please!

Oh, and note that people are trying to make LinuxCNC easy to configure; the "stepconf" program by Chris Morley (packaged with LinuxCNC) does very well.

JohnS

[Roger]

I'm sure LinuxCNC is more stable, it surely has to be since it's not Windows based! Perhaps I've overstated the issues and made it sound like Mach3 is unusable, and that's not a fair assessment. We all find ways of doing things that work for us and we avoid things that are troublesome so we get the job done. I'm afraid that Windows is the only platform I'm interested in using because it runs all the CAD/CAM and other packages I need in the workshop as well as the machine and it's not convenient to have another computer with another monitor there when one computer can do it all.
I need only the most basic of functions on my machine because the CAD/CAM does everything. I don't need to create pockets or even use arcs on the machine, it just needs to run G01,F,S, M03 & M05, that's it. All the rest is superfluous. I don't use offsets, all the cutter compensation is done elsewhere and I can see the toolpath without that being on the machine. One day someone will hopefully start from scratch and make a Windows based open source controller that people can make as complex or simple as they like. Roll on that day!

[Roger]

A little update for those who think that Mach3 is robust. I'm currently watching my machine running with the program pane frozen at block 5. This is after I've paused and tried to restart the machine and get back into single step mode. It's not having any of it.
So today I've had a situation where I've turned off the spindle using the On/Off button on the screen, rewound the program and it steadfastly refuses to turn it back on again until I've pressed the button.
This is where Mach3 really is very poor. When you need to intervene, restart, get into single step mode, temporarily stop the spindle etc, this is where it all falls apart and it's frankly dangerous.
Whether any of this can be improved by rewriting what happens when the various buttons are pressed is anyone's guess. Personally, I think it's junk, but at the moment it's what I'll live with. I expect I'll figure out ways to safely do these things but I really shouldn't have to.

[Doug]

Ok I have not updated for a bit so here is what I am upto 
I am pretty fed up with the gutless spindle it's now very obviously the weak link on the machine. I have now got everything working well and the accuracy has remained good for a while so happy with the machine it's time for the spindle upgrade.

The old spindle motor this silly little motor only has 150w and a very poor speed control

The whole lot removed including the electrics and the two speed (very noisy) gearbox which has fragile plastic gears

The new motor it's 350w 4000rpm motor I have put a 2:1 ratio belt drive so should have upto 2000 rpm. This is plenty as I will add a high speed engraving spindle later these are on EBay for about £40. Just awaiting a 48v power supply for the drive and I can test it out I think the chances of stalling this setup are very low indeed. I also have an encoder on the back of the motor which I will hook up to a home made spindle speed readout.once it's working I will use the mill to make a motor mount bracket for the spindle motor this has a couple of blocks to support it temporarily.

[Roger]

Now that's more like what should have been on there in the first place. I don't know what they were thinking of using gears to drive a spindle, that was always going to sound like a bag of nails. This is the final piece in the Sieg jigsaw and I reckon it will do as much as it's possible to achieve on this size of machine. I'll be very interested to see what difference it makes.

[Roger]

Just one more update on Mach3 and it's robustness...
It may be that some of the issues I'm having relate to the Smoothstepper and it's plugin, but this is what's happened today.
I needed to go out, so I pressed feed hold and clicked the spindle button to off. On return, I clicked the spindle button again and started the spindle and then pressed the Run button. The program restarted ok, but at a much higher feedrate than the programmed one. It may be because I was running the program at a much reduced override rate, and maybe it restarted using the programmed feedrate without regard to the override. Whatever it is, it's dangerous.
The display also didn't update again after that.

I've just had to stop the machine because the chuck was going to strike the work. I used the stop button on the screen for that. When I typed Z50 to move the head up, it went up very fast indeed, nothing like the feedrate it was running.

[Doug]

Well what a few weeks I have been away for a while so the spindle job got put on hold. But once I got back my new power supply had been delivered 48v dc 350w to power the drive for the motor. Put it all together and had some issues I took a while to sort out the control outputs and setup etc. then found two of my three motors had faults. So hooked up the good one and ran it up, all good as far as I can tell the speeds look good (I need to hook up a tacho) I am a little unhappy with the control Side though. It needs to remove the enable off the drive when not spinning but this is a very small matter of wiring, I may not even need to alter that as I think I can do it by altering the outputs from Mach3. I can now use the tried and tested method of using the mill to make itself as I need some motor mounts making. Photo's to follow.

[Doug]

Hi been quite busy so this job was held up but I finnal got round to making the spindle motor spacer, it would also be good to have my step spacers back for my clamping kit, they are currently the spindle motor spacer.

Quite a few hours machining so far it's taken 6hours another two should do it.
All done

I already have some metalwork mocked up for a cover it just needs finishing off should end up about half the height when completed.

And I have added a PCs shelf next to the machine for ease of use I am going to remove the PC tomorrow as its getting a bit frosty in the workshop and I don't want to ruin my electronics.

That's about all done then for now it works very well and it just gets on with it now I have a better spindle motor and drive

[Roger]

Excellent! That looks a lot more manly with that spindle motor.
How are you getting on with that pendant? I like the device itself but I can't make head nor tail of how it's supposed to work with Mach3. I just want some simple control modes but it's a complete mess as it currently is with the defaults. Have you figured out how to get it to do what you want?

[Doug]

Dec 29, 2014 6:24:11 GMT Roger said:

Excellent! That looks a lot more manly with that spindle motor.
How are you getting on with that pendant? I like the device itself but I can't make head nor tail of how it's supposed to work with Mach3. I just want some simple control modes but it's a complete mess as it currently is with the defaults. Have you figured out how to get it to do what you want?

I do understand how it works and at some point I will write some macro's for the buttons I don't use but for now it works potty well for me out of the box, it's not the most reliable setup (Mach 3 & cheap MPG) but it is not the worst I have had to deal with.
if you look at the macro files that came with the MPG you can see what they did to get it to work. There is even some very poor instruction on programming the buttons.

[Roger]

Ok, I'll take a look at it. I have no idea why there are so many jog modes in Mach3, I find it completely bewildering. I click on the different options and sometimes it makes the MPG work and other times it doesn't. Some seem to need a Feed rate to be set before they do anything other than creep. I was hoping to find some explanation on the net about setting it all up but I couldn't find anything. I've found a crude way of getting it to do what I want for most of the time but it's not very satisfactory. I do wish they wouldn't make these things so unnecessarily complex.

[Doug]

Dec 29, 2014 8:29:16 GMT Roger said:

Ok, I'll take a look at it. I have no idea why there are so many jog modes in Mach3, I find it completely bewildering. I click on the different options and sometimes it makes the MPG work and other times it doesn't. Some seem to need a Feed rate to be set before they do anything other than creep. I was hoping to find some explanation on the net about setting it all up but I couldn't find anything. I've found a crude way of getting it to do what I want for most of the time but it's not very satisfactory. I do wish they wouldn't make these things so unnecessarily complex.

I know what you mean there are loads and loads of totally unnecessary buttons and features, if I had the time I would get into it and rattle it out so I had just what I want on there I like the Aqua screen set but it's only an improvement not a full solution. Given time and seeing how open the program and features are I am sure it could be made into something very good indeed. However I have found a couple of the bugs you mentioned connected with the spindle control.
a few more things I would like to get into if I have time is spindle speed feedback and look at improving the ball screws on x and y axis.