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Post by ejparrott on Nov 28, 2014 9:27:27 GMT
Jesus wept....
Roller bearings are not always used with the hardened inner sleeves, so Paul's comments are accurate. Would you like me to strip the gearbox in my Land Rover to show you?
If you're such an expert on Stainless, why do you keep asking questions about it? You seem 100% committed to building the damn think purely out of stainless, so stop asking if it's suitable, then telling us that we don't know what we're talking about, and just go build the sodding thing!
BORED!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2014 9:53:37 GMT
When was the last time you saw a "traditional" axle ( ie...EN8 etc.) rendered U/S due to rusting or wearing out ?? ( In the latter case the axlebox is the "Designed-in" sacrificial item.)...How does the cost of SS compare against EN8 ??...OK, use SS by all means, if that's what you want to do...I just don't see what advantage there is in doing so..Just seems to be "Change for the sake of change"...................................Roller and ball types come with a plus and a minus.....Plus = a)Never wear out ( to all intents and purposes),....b)Much reduced rolling resistance,...c)Sealed types are oiled for life, thus a saving in oil costs over the semi-total loss type............... Minus = a) Requires specialist manufacturing and fitting, ( Whitemetal/Bronze combo. can be made, repaired and serviced "in-house" by local workforce)..... b) Open types susceptible to the slightest piece of contamination ( White metal can absorb these ), ....c)If fitted inboard then requires the wheel removed first, ..... Horses for courses I think ??...........In the 1950--60's British Railways needed to save a shedload of unwarranted costings whilst at the same time in India they could afford to have a "Ticket carrying" person in the ticket office whose sole job it was to take the ticket from the issuing person to the customer !!............. .
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2014 10:11:24 GMT
Do you have to machine the side play into the axlebox hornslides? Surely the bearings must be a tight fit on axle and into axlebox, so the side play must be the axleboxes in the frames?
Cheers Ben
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2014 11:06:18 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2014 11:22:33 GMT
Do you have to machine the side play into the axlebox hornslides? Surely the bearings must be a tight fit on axle and into axlebox, so the side play must be the axleboxes in the frames? Cheers Ben If you use needle roller bearings running straight on the axles (like I do) then the axle can still move from side to side in the bearing as normal. John
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pault
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,497
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Post by pault on Nov 28, 2014 11:44:44 GMT
I have my front bogie axles already fully machined on AISI 304 stainless steel, they look really great! but I understand this is not common practice. I am using roller bearings on them so in my case the particular material being used Is not specially relevant as long as it is strong enough and the recommended roller bearing tolerances are respected. I don't know where the use of ball races came from, but I took "I am using roller bearings on them" to mean running the rollers directly on the axles. If you are running with with inner sleeves then the material is almost irrelevant, as you say. I can't believe all this ignorance and absurd negative bias against this materialMy comments were bases on a slight misunderstanding of what you said however they are valid if you were running on the axle. There is no bias against stainless steel and i use it regularly where its unique properties are needed. Since you seem to think I and others are ignorant could you enlighten us ignorant mortals by explaining the engineering reasons you chose this particular material for axles. Regards Paul
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Post by miketaylor on Nov 28, 2014 12:13:25 GMT
Paul,
The interpretation of Joan's remark as referring to ball races came from me and I apologise - sloppy reading - plus I have ball races on my mind from another topic.
However, now we don't actually know whether Joan is proposing to use Ball races or needle rollers as Baggo. Maybe a slight language problem.
If you are using needle rollers directly on the axle Joan, could you please explain the details of the SS metallurgy that makes this a desirable/acceptable combination.
Mike
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2014 14:35:42 GMT
Do you have to machine the side play into the axlebox hornslides? Surely the bearings must be a tight fit on axle and into axlebox, so the side play must be the axleboxes in the frames? Cheers Ben If you use needle roller bearings running straight on the axles (like I do) then the axle can still move from side to side in the bearing as normal. John Cheers John, all becomes clear! Do you need some sort of lip seal to stop the ingress of dirt and the like? Or are the bearings sealed in some other way? Ben
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Post by joanlluch on Nov 28, 2014 14:37:55 GMT
Paul, The interpretation of Joan's remark as referring to ball races came from me and I apologise - sloppy reading - plus I have ball races on my mind from another topic. However, now we don't actually know whether Joan is proposing to use Ball races or needle rollers as Baggo. Maybe a slight language problem. If you are using needle rollers directly on the axle Joan, could you please explain the details of the SS metallurgy that makes this a desirable/acceptable combination. Mike Mike, your earlier post was correct. I am not using needle rollers directly on the axle but regular ball bearings. Rollers on the axle would not work.. So the axle is machined to hold the inner ring of the ball bearing according to the recommended bearing manufacturer tolerances for that. There is no friction or rolling on the axle as it is the ball bearing that handles rotation. by the way, the ball bearings could be SS as well, some manufacturers have them, but I chose regular ones instead. They arrived today. Just to clarify to others. I did not ask advice on this particular subject, I just posted what I intended to do, just as a matter of sharing my approach. However as soon as I mentioned SS all sort of rejections and disqualifications about that material came in, which caught me by surprise. I already posted why I chose SS. I do not think my reasons are that hard to understand. I just like the material and I use it were it CAN be used.
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Post by joanlluch on Nov 28, 2014 14:41:35 GMT
If you use needle roller bearings running straight on the axles (like I do) then the axle can still move from side to side in the bearing as normal. John Cheers John, all becomes clear! Do you need some sort of lip seal to stop the ingress of dirt and the like? Or are the bearings sealed in some other way? Ben Ben, I allow the axle boxes to play sideways movement, the bearings are self sealed.
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uuu
Elder Statesman
your message here...
Posts: 2,814
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Post by uuu on Nov 28, 2014 15:18:22 GMT
To get back to the original question - Ken Swan recommended old car axle half-shafts as a source of suitable material. So I got some - Morris Minor or similar BMC style. A bit tough to machine - but Jessie's axles have come from them, as have a set for a slate wagon I'm building. Jessie's axles will run in plain bronze, but the wagon has roller bearings and hardened sleeves.
Wilf
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Post by joanlluch on Nov 28, 2014 17:54:52 GMT
I don't know where the use of ball races came from, but I took "I am using roller bearings on them" to mean running the rollers directly on the axles. If you are running with with inner sleeves then the material is almost irrelevant... could you enlighten us ignorant mortals by explaining the engineering reasons you chose this particular material for axles. I suddenly realized where all the trouble came from. I wrote "rolling bearings" where I actually meant BALL bearings. Thus I did not understand why some of you insisted on SS not being suitable. Paul, I'm sorry for that. Thus, As you say the material is irrelevant. There is no engineering reasons, just love for the material. I do not suppose we all are in this hobby for rational reasons, but just because we like it. So the same applies.
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Post by Roger on Nov 28, 2014 19:28:22 GMT
The language is a minefield. Some people refer to Ball Bearings and just mean the balls themselves. Others would say that a Ball Bearing is the whole bearing assembly. You're right about rationality though, I have no idea what some builders see in the thing they're modelling but I can still appreciate what goes into it's construction and design.
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Post by jma1009 on Nov 28, 2014 20:09:35 GMT
i was somewhat hesitant to enter this debate as my first loco has stainless axles albeit in gunmetal axleboxes.
i was an impecunious (skint) 16 year old and had just got enough pocket money to buy the wheel and axlebox castings and pump castings. a summer job was a few months away.
i'd machined up the wheel castings on a very great friend's LeBlond lathe in an afternoon, so asked if he had any 1/2" dia steel for the axles... i hadnt realised that ground B.M.S. was coveted and not lying about in abundance! "there's some 1/2" dia stainless you can have for the axles in the corner over there" i was informed, so machined this up. over 30 years later those axleboxes havent been touched, though i sold the loco to another great friend many years later.
i wouldnt use stainless with hard drawn phos bronze though.
another loco has a rear axle out of stainless because the blowdown valve on the back of the boiler is close to the axle.
cheers, julian
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Post by joanlluch on Nov 28, 2014 20:46:32 GMT
Hi Julian. Thanks for sharing your experience.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2014 21:15:25 GMT
impecunious ˌɪmpɪˈkjuːnɪəs/Submit adjective having little or no money. "a titled but impecunious family" synonyms: penniless, penurious, in penury, poor, impoverished, indigent, insolvent, moneyless, hard up, poverty-stricken, needy, in need, in want, destitute; -----------Cor!!, stripe-me-Pink Guv..The things one learns on this ear forum !!------------ My teenage years involved many a Riparian activity, if you get my meaning ??
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Post by jma1009 on Nov 28, 2014 21:24:10 GMT
hi alan, i think 'skint' is all that is required, after cycling over to don young's home at adgestone to buy the castings! don was in fact incredibly kind and didnt charge me the full price or VAT for the castings and drawings... little gestures like that to a teenager meant a lot, and ive never forgot his kindness when i was a 'nipper' (to use an Isle of Wight term). cheers, julian
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Post by Roger on Nov 28, 2014 21:34:37 GMT
You were so lucky Julian. I often wonder how differently things would have worked out for my interest in Steam Locomotives if the Southampton Model Engineers had taken even the slightest interest in me. Still, I'm here now... better late than never!
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pault
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,497
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Post by pault on Nov 28, 2014 21:35:45 GMT
No hard feelings Joan, confusion sorted.
Regards Paul
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Post by joanlluch on Nov 28, 2014 21:51:34 GMT
No hard feelings Joan, confusion sorted. Regards Paul Thanks Paul. I am a bit temperamental sometimes. I must learn to control my first impulses I guess. I want to say sorry again for having replied in such a way for no reason. Joan
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