twombo
Seasoned Member
Posts: 119
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Post by twombo on Aug 8, 2020 7:17:17 GMT
Thank You for the explanation, David!
It reminds me of. What a friend, who Makes . Steam fittings, told me about Bending the little handles on Trycocks and such!
just the right amount of heat, and the brass bends without issue!, Too much, or, too little , produces frustration! He related that if the heat is not, just right, the problem is immediate! He says practice, practice, practice! I have Done some aircraft structural Work in the past, but only in aluminum !
I fear that i must relearn the little bit, that I think I know!
I am just starting to do a bit of Platework, and Your nice result encourages me! I have rivets on the way, and some Rivet tooling sets under construction! Wish me luck! Your “Lizzie” is coming along nicely and i. Spent a short bit. Exploring your log this evening!
All the best!
Mick!
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Post by Roger on Aug 8, 2020 8:13:05 GMT
Mick The angle in front of the cab was formed by a bit of messing around. First time I was annealing it and got it too hot and it drooped. Binned. Next time I drilled the holes and then tried heating and got several straight short bits broken at the holes. Binned. Last I heated gently and manually bent it around the handle of a little hammer I use. After heating and bending it took up the correct shape. Then I drilled the holes. I was quite surprised at how easy it is to bend the brass when it gets red hot but not too hot as it turns into toffee!! So we live and learn. If nothing else this Princess Royal lark has opened by eyes to a lot of new skills that proper engineers have known about all the time but us lot have to learn about. Now onto the red paint experience as they say!!! Cheers David Hi David, Practical experience is by far the best way to learn in my opinion, and failure makes you remember what not to do! Treading that line between hot enough and too hot when bending Brass is why most people won't do it. I certainly wouldn't. That's because you don't need to. Once annealed, you can bend it cold easily enough, it's just that you can't bend it far before you need to anneal it again. Anyway, you're finding ways to do things that work, and that's all that matters.
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twombo
Seasoned Member
Posts: 119
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Post by twombo on Aug 8, 2020 20:19:40 GMT
Thank You Roger and David!
As I am “Imagineering” a flush riveted, 3500 gallon, Churchward tender for a Saint in 17/32” scale,
the issue of forming metal Is frontmost in my mind! The flared coaming, if that is the correct term, Which Wraps around the rounded rear corners of the tank. I’ve been thinking of using Brass for that. Based on david’s experience, I may form the coaming from copper. Adding some half round beading and the short coal fenders, should add some needed strength.
I’ve been thinking of making Some small coil spring clips from music wire to hold the beading whilst soldering. Sharp points on the. Contact points mat prevent them acting as a heat sink! Some very small alligator clips, as we call them may suit as well. davids trial. Attaching that bloody beading, have me foerwarned!
That stuff looks wonderful! The model is not complete without that crucial detail!! I have been eyeing a wonderful book on constructing Fine scale automobiles. Miniature wire wheels and Panel beatib, the whole Lot! The price of that lovely book almost throughs me into seizures!
Terminal Sticker shock!! i should just go for it! Supplies of Brass heet and angle are on the way, arriving monday!
Good luck all, and thank You for the intellectual ferment, gentlemen!
Mick!
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Post by Roger on Aug 8, 2020 22:19:14 GMT
Thank You Roger and David! As I am “Imagineering” a flush riveted, 3500 gallon, Churchward tender for a Saint in 17/32” scale, the issue of forming metal Is frontmost in my mind! The flared coaming, if that is the correct term, Which Wraps around the rounded rear corners of the tank. I’ve been thinking of using Brass for that. Based on david’s experience, I may form the coaming from copper. Adding some half round beading and the short coal fenders, should add some needed strength. I’ve been thinking of making Some small coil spring clips from music wire to hold the beading whilst soldering. Sharp points on the. Contact points mat prevent them acting as a heat sink! Some very small alligator clips, as we call them may suit as well. davids trial. Attaching that bloody beading, have me foerwarned! That stuff looks wonderful! The model is not complete without that crucial detail!! I have been eyeing a wonderful book on constructing Fine scale automobiles. Miniature wire wheels and Panel beatib, the whole Lot! The price of that lovely book almost throughs me into seizures! Terminal Sticker shock!! i should just go for it! Supplies of Brass heet and angle are on the way, arriving monday! Good luck all, and thank You for the intellectual ferment, gentlemen! Mick! Hi Mick, Forming Brass sheet is no different to forming Copper sheet. The rules are exactly the same. You need a decent former and a supporting plate on top to keep it in place. Thicker sheet is easier to form than thin stuff. The trick is to only do one round with the mallet, two at the most before annealing. Being impatient and trying to make too much progress after each annealing will cause no end of trouble. If you can move the metal a little each time, you will eventually get it to whatever shape you want. It doesn't matter if that means 20 or 30 annealing and forming steps. Better that than ending up with something so badly rippled you end up scrapping it, or conclude that it's impossible. Trim off the excess as you go so you're not trying to form metal that's going to be cut off in the end anyway.
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Midland
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,871
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Post by Midland on Aug 10, 2020 19:22:37 GMT
Cab done, now to paint. Will need a planning meeting to get this correct especially the lining there is lots of it! Anyway either I have done it or it has done me, my back aches! IMG_2483 by David Goyder, on Flickr Have not screwed down the roof as the inside is all colours, white above the waist, crimson below, top black. Yes on the roof is the piece you slide out to drive it and a dummy vent with no where to slide!!! And for you Mick, the rear rain gutter. A pig to rivet so I bent it over the back and put some heat on it. It stayed that shape so I soft solderd it on. The paint will hide my sins with a bit of luck! IMG_2482 by David Goyder, on Flickr IMG_2484 by David Goyder, on Flickr Cheers David
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twombo
Seasoned Member
Posts: 119
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Post by twombo on Aug 11, 2020 4:13:42 GMT
Thank You David! That is a detail I had not identified. I’ve found one picture of 2999 with that Gutter, as you call it!
I had no clue of its purpose. Now, I do. i’ve ordered some Rivets but they are 1/32” Which may be to large. You are using 3/64”. . I am thinking. 1/32” may be to large! The numbers are the Shank size? correct?
A brace of those wee toolmaker clamps appear to be a real MUST, I have several starrett and Browne and sharpes, but much too large! I destroyed a sizeable. Amount of music wire, trying a “ Bodge”! A little effort on the proper kit is needed!
That Cab is looking wonderful! Your efforts are Inspiring several notes to the engineering notebook! That intellectual ferment that I mentioned earlier!
My parcel of Brass sheet and angle, arrived today,
Now to get those blasted axle boxes finished so the beast can get the chassis on the drivers!
Keep at it! She, as you say, Looks, , A Peach!
Thanks for The inspiration to keep “shop hours”!
Mick!
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Midland
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,871
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Post by Midland on Aug 11, 2020 8:34:51 GMT
Hi Mick The angle is 1/16 that I got from a doll's house shop (or somewhere like that). The rivets are 1/32 and you need a very small snap head to use them. I destroyed the first gutter piece and had to redo it due to the small rivets. I got away with it on the sides and not quite sure why. But had to position the strip, drill and rivet, then position, drill and rivet and slowly creep along to get the job done. Little tool makers clamps are essential, buy lots. Wooden clothes pegs are good too. Another item you might find useful is a medical tool. It is sprung shut and you squeese to open, insert a small nut (12BA) and then you can offer up the nut without having fat fingers in the way. It might be called a sutre clamp. Cheers david
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Post by coniston on Aug 11, 2020 9:09:10 GMT
Cab done, now to paint. Will need a planning meeting to get this correct especially the lining there is lots of it! Anyway either I have done it or it has done me, my back aches! IMG_2483 by David Goyder, on Flickr Have not screwed down the roof as the inside is all colours, white above the waist, crimson below, top black. Yes on the roof is the piece you slide out to drive it and a dummy vent with no where to slide!!! And for you Mick, the rear rain gutter. A pig to rivet so I bent it over the back and put some heat on it. It stayed that shape so I soft solderd it on. The paint will hide my sins with a bit of luck! IMG_2482 by David Goyder, on Flickr IMG_2484 by David Goyder, on Flickr Cheers David I think you're really getting the hang of this tin bashing, well done David. Chris D
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Midland
Elder Statesman
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Post by Midland on Aug 11, 2020 11:25:47 GMT
Thanks Chris As long as there is paint to cover my sins. Consensus here is that we will paint the cab to look splendid and then leave the rest for the next enthusiast. All I need is an acculumation test to have her in ticket as last time I failed her my self as the injector did not work properly, should do now! Then I will need to find a buyer who likes Pacifics! D
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Midland
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,871
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Post by Midland on Aug 18, 2020 14:35:43 GMT
They say it takes a lifetime to get to know a woman, well I think it takes just as long to get to know a loco. Did a bit of playing today, IMG_2508 by David Goyder, on Flickr Tried Simplyloco's peculiar pens on a bit of lining on the cylinder covers. First of all the finish was cobblestone like so I did some 1200 weight wet and dry which just reminded me that I had not shot blasted the covers yet. Then tried a bit of lining, petty awful, not like the master's but it certainbly brightened up the look of the thing. Then I put it back to avoid loosing the tiny screws. Now if this loco had ever been lined the screw heads would be straw and not red so I think it has never been lined, certainly not in the past 50 years and probably since it was built and that date is a mystery of course. Just a bit more of the mystery! Cheers David
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Midland
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,871
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Post by Midland on Aug 25, 2020 17:11:05 GMT
Done, fineeto,last bits on and I can now move on. A long haul really as this little adventure started mid 2018, 2 years ago and all I needed to do was to get a shell test on the boiler but then . . . and you know the rest. Put the number plate on the smokebox door and fixed the last piece of boiler banding held on with 12ba countersunk screws. Quite happy to do things like that as if you look at the big ones they do the same sort of things and they often look rougher than our models, you just don't see it when they flash by at 60 mph. Anyway off to the paint shop and then off to someone who might enjoy her. Will get the final ticket once the gale has gone and get tucked into the next one. IMG_2511 by David Goyder, on Flickr IMG_2513 by David Goyder, on Flickr Thanks for all your advice and help, I have enjoyed this one and learnt a lot. Cheers David
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2020 22:06:12 GMT
Well done David, looks great. As for finish, one would struggle to make a model look as bad as what full size looks close up. I have just sprayed my running boards and know that when I check them in the morning there will be dust in the paint. I have done what I can, sprayed in the old workshop which is unused and thus most dust is stettled, I covered everything over in cardboard to reduce the dust that can fall on the parts overnight, IIRC this paint takes 24-36 hours to cure. I also know that such things aren't really noticed by the human eye on a finished model, the eyes are drawn to the overall image before them, not a small or even large bit of dust. Last I looked before locking up for the night the paint looked flat, no orange peel as before which is why I re-painted them. Something else I have learnt over the years, once the model is sitting in a steaming bay it will get covered in ash, some of which leaves permanent marks. Good fun this live steaming lark isn't it?... Keep up the great work sir... Pete
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Post by dhamblin on Aug 26, 2020 12:13:31 GMT
Also a relatively rare model in any live steam gauge, so to resurrect it is a job well done.
Hope the new owner gets lots of enjoyment from it.
Regards,
Dan
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timb
Statesman
Posts: 512
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Post by timb on Aug 28, 2020 9:21:12 GMT
Looking forward to your next adventure!
Tim
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Midland
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,871
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Post by Midland on Aug 29, 2020 17:47:41 GMT
Dan/ Pete/ Tim Thanks for your comments. I have had a last gasp of frustration from this thing! You may notice some social distancing as I am learning to hate it! Realised that the hand rails were not on so went to put them back. There are actually two bits left in my dismantling box but not the hand rails. I looked for them on my now clean bench, no sight. But I do have some similar material that came off a coil about eight feet in diameter. Cut some off and started feeding it through the stanchions. Then it dawned on me. The MASTER had come by a year ago and asked if I had some of said material, Yes I probably do. He spied a couple of bits on the bench and asked if I needed these. Not really I said rather absent mindedly. He needed some for his green monster so off he went with what turned out to be the hand rails from my Princess Royal. The swine, the (expletive deleted), I could hardly go over and demand them back so there you are, his Sterling Single is enhanced with LMS handrails, no wonder it looks good! And while feeding it through one of the stanchiosn was loose. It then fell off, the threads wre stripped and the nut had come off, Luckily I have some spare stanchions and got one on but it is different, the post part is coned a bit and not straight as it was fifty years plus ago. It will drive the rivet counters bonkers!!!! Anyway all this decided for me that I am not going to give it a fancy paint job, just slap on something to cover the grey primer and the next owner can do his own thing. I hate painting anyway and after readng Chris Vine's book for the past two weeks I have no desire to go through the torment he suffered, did a wonderful job of course but just not me!!!! And the box I made has about a quarter of an inch to spare with the new cab roof on. Pass the bottle!! Cheers David
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Midland
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,871
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Post by Midland on Sept 5, 2020 19:03:24 GMT
Had steam in her today ably helped by Tom. Poor lad, if it could go wrong it did. The safety valves will not hold above 40 lbs and he cannot shut off the blower. New springs for the saftey valves is easy, the rest needs a bit of looking at. Not having steam in her 50 years does not help. Anyway my Princess of Wales is in ticket. D
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Midland
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,871
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Post by Midland on Apr 5, 2021 20:02:53 GMT
Dear Princess Royal devotees
This wretched monster emerges from her box as I move toward a final accumulation test. Tried one a few weeks ago (under special essential industrial boiler testing regs) and nothing worked. So a few remedies later I did one today in my old workshop (notice 'old' terribly superior here with an 'old' and 'new' workshop not that it helps in the least) and moved forward. Hand pump works. Axle pump works. New safety valves work (thanks Polly), but the new injector does not pick up. It is here that we bring Julian to the stage. Julian, a well done bringer of knowledge to us heathens, very kindly offered to have a look at the old injector which he did. Having cast Merlin like spells over it, he sent it back. He said it was perfect and would make me a happy bunny. It spluttered water and not much else. (Not julian's fault, it was 50 years old, not Julian, the injector!) In the spluttering we heard some disguised comments about an LMS loco but I sorted that by telling the stupid thing that it would be replaced by a true Midland injector!! True Midland injector duly fitted and all it did was to splutter about a GWR one had been here before. I told it to shut up!!!!! Seriously, when turning on the steam, (yes water first!) it gurgoles and almost picks up but then seems overpowered and gives up. That is at anything between 90 and 30 psi. I suspect these wretched on top of the boiler clacks, ex Great Western of course, Stanier could be completely beguilded by these sexy things. So plan of attack is, change all the 50 year old plastic hoses that may not be airtight. Try the injector sucking up from a bowl of water not from the tender, clean the clack ball although it is but a few weeks old. Drink a bottle scotch and throw myself in front of the 14:42 Weymouth departure from Waterloo, consult the Master (although he is not a train man) or take up painting abstract art or running a brothel. Anything else you might suggest? Cheers slowly going mad David
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Gary L
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,208
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Post by Gary L on Apr 6, 2021 10:12:25 GMT
Dear Princess Royal devotees This wretched monster emerges from her box as I move toward a final accumulation test. Tried one a few weeks ago (under special essential industrial boiler testing regs) and nothing worked. So a few remedies later I did one today in my old workshop (notice 'old' terribly superior here with an 'old' and 'new' workshop not that it helps in the least) and moved forward. Hand pump works. Axle pump works. New safety valves work (thanks Polly), but the new injector does not pick up. It is here that we bring Julian to the stage. Julian, a well done bringer of knowledge to us heathens, very kindly offered to have a look at the old injector which he did. Having cast Merlin like spells over it, he sent it back. He said it was perfect and would make me a happy bunny. It spluttered water and not much else. (Not julian's fault, it was 50 years old, not Julian, the injector!) In the spluttering we heard some disguised comments about an LMS loco but I sorted that by telling the stupid thing that it would be replaced by a true Midland injector!! True Midland injector duly fitted and all it did was to splutter about a GWR one had been here before. I told it to shut up!!!!! Seriously, when turning on the steam, (yes water first!) it gurgoles and almost picks up but then seems overpowered and gives up. That is at anything between 90 and 30 psi. I suspect these wretched on top of the boiler clacks, ex Great Western of course, Stanier could be completely beguilded by these sexy things. So plan of attack is, change all the 50 year old plastic hoses that may not be airtight. Try the injector sucking up from a bowl of water not from the tender, clean the clack ball although it is but a few weeks old. Drink a bottle scotch and throw myself in front of the 14:42 Weymouth departure from Waterloo, consult the Master (although he is not a train man) or take up painting abstract art or running a brothel. Anything else you might suggest? Cheers slowly going mad David You and Julian seem to have proved that your injectors are fine. The ‘50 year old plastic hoses’ are your most likely culprit. If they are the clear sort (probably not clear any more though) they creep in their early years, so all the joints get loose, then they harden as they get older. After that, check all the pipes for holes & cracks and the delivery pipe for scale. It only takes a pinhole to mess up an injector feed. Good luck Gary
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Post by steamer5 on Apr 7, 2021 8:44:22 GMT
Keep at it David, you gotta be on the home stretch now! As a suggestion, replace your plastic tubing with silicon, it doesn’t harden, mines been on for 20 plus years & is still nice & soft. If you go this way get the next size down silicon from the hard pipe size, it will stretch to fit & wont leak.
Cheers Kerrin
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Midland
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,871
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Post by Midland on Apr 8, 2021 8:56:48 GMT
Thanks Chaps. Yes can get out today and replace the old connections and a few other experiments! A little warmer helps! Cheers David
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