Don Young's Black 5

[runner42]

Feb 9, 2023 7:36:11 GMT dhamblin said:

How big is the wheel boss - does it prevent seeing the axlebox top face when wheel rotated to have rods down? Also does the valance beneath the cab get it the way? Usually there is enough room to get an oil can thin pipe in between the spokes.

Regards,

Dan

Dan you are right. What I have realised that with the installation of the boiler that the trailing wheelset springs has caused the bearings to reach near to the top of the axleboxes making the gap too small for entry of a pipe between the wheel spokes to the top of the axleboxes. Springing needs to be adjusted to account for the weight of the bolier.

Brian

[dhamblin]

That's good to hear and tallies with the photos where it looks a little low at the firebox end. Loco is looking great by the way

On the firebars - don't modify the ashpan just yet - have a look at this video from 50 seconds in: youtu.be/7ETWeoCgKBU

Hopefully a similar installation method will work in your case even with the smaller door in 5" scale.

Regards,

Dan

[runner42]

Thanks Dan it looks so easy in the video but I suspect that the boiler isn't a Belpair which due to the narrower grate area is more difficult to arrange the 3 pieces in position. Also, DY specified castellations on the bearers to interlock with the grate girders, this makes sliding each piece in position more difficult and if wrongly placed requires some means of lifting the piece out of the castellations. More thought is required to design tools to undertake the placement and removal of the grate but I am thinking that a pair of very long nosed pliers that are bent is the way to go as a start point.

Brian

PS Another issue that needs addressing is having a small LED light that can be placed in the firebox to illuminate the work being undertaken is a must.

[steamer5]

Hi Brian,
Dad uses a similar idea as shown in the video posted by Dan. He made up a long hooked tool, as per the video, the only difference is the spacer bar position. With dads when you hook it there is more grate to the front & it naturally tips forward, meaning you dont need a length of string. His grate is a 3 piece affair & you have to put the bits in the right place... ie the left & right are slightly different. Oh he uses the tool to make sure there is no coal on the supports.
On the torch front see if you can find one small enough to mount on the tool, a pencil shaped on with an LED in the end would work, I have a couple both have good magnets on the clip, which would make mounting easy

Cheers Kerrin

[oldnorton]

Don Young talks about taking the grate sections out with a 'tool' somewhere in the LLAS Black Five article series. So it was in his mind to do it this way.

[runner42]

After much endeavour trying to get the grate to locate in the castellations I decided to remove the boiler and replace the support beams from a castellations type to a plain type. I recommend other's to do the same. This time I left the smokebox connected which saved a lot of dismantling. It added to the weight and locating the smokebox over the blast tube is going to be a challenge.

Brian

[Jim]

I think you've done the right thing Brian.

For similar reasons I opted for a simple flat Rosebud grate for the Britannia that slides out easily from the base of the fire box as shown in the photo.

Once in place and with the fire burning brightly there is nothing to indicate what sort of grate is being used.

Jim

[runner42]

Well not only did I replace the castellated type for a plain grate bearer, but I simplified the construction by just including a simple spar that is silver soldered to the beveled sides of the ashpan. I assume that the silver soldered spars wont be affected by firebox heat, assuming that the hottest temperature exist above the grate area and not below. The ashpan is a silver soldered assembly so it is jusy a bit more of the same. Lifting the boiler with the smokebox in situ was just a 1 man lift but replacing it so that the smokebox locates over the blast pipe is going to require the help of SHMBO.

Brian 

[runner42]

With the boiler re-installed fitting the grate through the firebox door was straightforward. No special tools were required to install it just a piece of wire, to remove it probably requires something a little more fit for purpose like a piece of wire with a hook in it. The time I wasted with the castellation bearers trying to install the grate far exceeded the time to remove the boiler and ashpan modify and re-install again. Sometimes you got to asses the situation and where necessary change tack.

Brian

[chris vine]

Hi Brian, I have melted silver solder on an ashpan.
You might do well to go for a bit of belt and braces with some angle and nuts and bolts….
Chris

[runner42]

Feb 17, 2023 16:31:51 GMT chris vine said:

Hi Brian, I have melted silver solder on an ashpan.
You might do well to go for a bit of belt and braces with some angle and nuts and bolts….
Chris

Chris I have made the bearers so in the event of a meltdown of the silver solder that they won't move and the silver solder will solidify again.

Revisiting the ashpan design I have perceived a potential problem in that there is no way to drop the fire in the event of an emergency. Other designs I have noted allow the ashpan and grate to be dropped by removing a pin, which is a better design because it allows for the grate to be placed in position instead of through the fire box door.

Brian

[dhamblin]

Is a drop grate a requirement in the Australian boiler code? Just wondering if the rag over the chimney and blower full on technique would be acceptable.

Regards,

Dan

[oldnorton]

I have always felt that 'dropping a fire in an emergency' is potentially adding to danger, throwing coals over a track, and a poor response to mismanagement of water levels.

A fire will lose its heat very quickly as soon as you stop pulling air through it. If you want to be sure it is killed then 'a rag down the chimney and blower on' will start the water gas reaction to produce carbon monoxide and hydrogen, but only while the fire is red hot. The reaction is endothermic, meaning it needs to take in heat energy.

Interestingly (well for me, but probably boring for others) I just checked the energy direction for producer gas reactions and realised what we have in the above 'emergency response' is a water gas and not producer gas reaction. In the early 1800s producer gas was made by passing steam and air over coke - just enough air to keep the combustion going. This produced a weak mix of hydrogen and carbon monoxide diluted with nitrogen so the water gas process was developed in 1850 in which steam only was passed over white hot coke. As the coke cooled the gas works would switch to air to heat it all up again and the steam cycle then repeated. This was the principle behind town gas manufacture.

[Jim]

Feb 19, 2023 9:17:28 GMT dhamblin said:

Is a drop grate a requirement in the Australian boiler code? Just wondering if the rag over the chimney and blower full on technique would be acceptable.

Regards,

Dan

As far as I'm aware a drop grate is not a requirement out here and from personal experience the wet rag stuffed in the chimney with the blower full on certainly works well and without objection. It's my prefered method.

Jim

[runner42]

Feb 19, 2023 9:17:28 GMT dhamblin said:

Is a drop grate a requirement in the Australian boiler code? Just wondering if the rag over the chimney and blower full on technique would be acceptable.

Regards,

Dan

Dan no it is not a feature of the AMBSC Code Part 1 and has been mentioned by oldnorton that it is especially dangerous in Australia particularly in bush fire conditions. Not that running steam powered locomotives would be allowed if affected by a fire ban day. Most steam locomotive drivers carry a rag specifically for blocking the chimney with the blower full on the kill the fire. I raised the issue of not being able to drop the ashpan as a means of cleaning the ashpan and grate, but mentioned dropping the fire as a safety issue, which was not a very good idea.

Brian

[ettingtonliam]

Yes, plug the chimney with a rag, but why the blower full on? Is it to damp the fire, but won't it tend to blow the contents of the fire out through the firehole door and down through the ashpan?

[uuu]

Best to close the firehole door - but yes, it will damp the fire and may blow some ash and cinders out of the bottom. In a more controlled way than the release of a fusible plug!
Wilf

[runner42]

I have decided that the boiler filling will use mains pressure to achieve this and not utilise the emergency pump in the tender since it will take some time to undertake. What I have decided to use the blowdown valve to provide the entry point. The end of the tube that drops below the locomotive I shall cut a thread that will enable me to utilise the threaded spout of an old tap that will interface with the range of snap connectors available in Australia to connect a hose pipe. The arrangement is depicted in the sketch attached. The old tap threaded spout can remain in situ since it will not affect the blowdown operatin.

Brian
 
Boiler filling by Brian Leach, on Flickr

[steamer5]

Hi Brian,
I just have a short length of silicon tube that pushes on to the tube from the blowdown valve.
As a suggestion put a tap close to the loco end of your hose, I’ve found it quite useful for not getting an unwanted bath!

Cheers Kerrin

[runner42]

It's nearing the time when I need to organise the logistics of getting the locomotive to SASMEE. I have a Hyandi Tuscon which is the vehicle to transport the locomotive from home. The locomotive with tnder attached is 5' 8" and the space available in the back of the Tuscon with the rear seats folded down is a little over this length. So I am optomistic that I can fit it in just, with some internal furniture to level the space over the boot area and the folded down seats. This internal furniture will have a rail system to enable the locomotive and tender to transition from the handling/transport frame to the stowage position and also means of anchoring it in postion during transport. However the initial task is to modify the handling/transport frame so that it can move over a grassed area and up a 6" step. The existing  wheels on the handling/transport frame are only castor size so totally unsuitable for uneven terrain. I will have to obtain some 6" dia or so pneumatic wheels on axles which can be postioned under the lower struts of the handling/transport frame. 

Brian

2023-03-11 15-12-15_0005 by Brian Leach, on Flickr