Winson 5" 9F Rebuild

[Jim]

To get a smaller image I insert a lower case L in front of the . preceding the jpg

For example

TIcfVLR.jpg as  copied from the photo site would become TIcfVLRl.jpg

Hope this helps.

Jim

[fubar123]

Thanks Jim it works !

[tarnish1]

Hi,
Just a quick update, Ill post some pics later.
The boiler has been Pressure tested to 200psi (working pressure 90psi) gave it a bit more just to be certain.
I was quite pleased with the Winson Boiler ( this one at least) it appears well made a nd well soldered . it passed no problems with zero leaks.
Been working on the ashpan, it has taken me two full days to clean up the slag filled welds that had been applied down the seams of the ashpan.
I have tig welded the cleaned up seams and that is looking good now.
The Winson method of boiler mounting leaves much to be desired. I have been fitting the ashpan to the foundation ring and fitting studs to the retaining ring to mount the ashpan securely.
Next step is to make the new smokebox and check boiler heights before making a set of rear boiler mounts as per les warnet.
As an aside : the smokebox is slightly longer than the warnet dimensions and about 1/4" smaller in diameter than the same!

Phil
Process of fitting the ashpan, this is the initial mating of the parts, you can see there are still a few holes to be Tigged up
The cap screws are temporary just for aligning the holes for the 4mm sts studs
There seem to be a very limited air supply to the grate via the ashpan so I thinking I will add some rows of holes along each side (similar to those you can see on the ends)

[92220]

Hi Phil.

If you want a scale smokebox, a 5" g smokebox for the 9f should be 6.1" O.D. x 8.4" long on the tube.

Bob.

[tarnish1]

Thanks Bob,
I know your dimensions will be really accurate.
Im considering using the warnet sizes, (since I have the plans) and the rest of the loco seems to have been based on his drawings, at least on the face of it)
If the boiler was super scale etc it may have been a different story.

Phil

[gwr14xx]

On my Winson 9F, I added the raking ports to the sides of the ashpan (as was done on the full size locos) - with these open, the fire burns much more evenly, and the ash doesn't build up in the corners, creating dead spots in the fire.

Regards,
Eddie.

[92220]

Hi Phil

The main thing is to check where the front of your smokebox is going to be, and where the front of the boiler is going to be when mounted on the frames. Deduct the thickness of the boiler front ring that connects it to the rear of the smokebox, and that will give you the length of the smokebox barrel that you will need, to fit your assembly.

Bob.

[don9f]

Hi Phil, that looks to be a very sturdy ashpan! You are probably aware that where those groups of holes are in the two end plates, is where the damper doors would be.
They are working doors on my own Warnett model and I do find them useful to help control the steaming rate. In reality I usually only open the rear door and then only by about a half.....but then there are other places on mine where air can get in! The whole thing is not an air tight fit to the foundation ring and the discharge hopper doors don’t make a perfect seal either.

Cheers Don

[tarnish1]

Thanks everyone for your constructive comments,
Eddie what do mean when you say raking doors? any pictures?

Phil

[92220]

Hi Phil.

This is a photo of the ashpan raking door on the right hand side. The one on the left side is the same:-

Ashpan Cleaning Door by Robert Shephard, on Flickr

Bob.
Edit:-   Having looked at the photo again, I do wonder how they actually get to the ashpan from here.  It is well below this access door. I've also found a B.R. drawing for the ashpan access door, and it isn't the one in the photo!! Sorryyyy!! I will email you a photo of the relevant details for the 'Ashpan Cleaning Door'.

Bob. 

[92220]

Hi Phil.

I have sent you an email with an attachment....but,

Oh dear!!! I think I just haven't woken yet, up this morning.....and it's just gone Midday!!! I must go and brew a STRONG cup of coffee before I get back out in the workshop!!!! The photo IS of the ashpan cleaning doors. When I looked again at the drawing I have, the details match what is seen in the photo.

Bob.

[don9f]

On the real thing there were no such doors on the very first built engines and due to the very shallow angle of the ashpan below the foundation ring and above the frames, ash would naturally build up and be difficult, if not impossible to clear easily. It wasn’t long before two ash cleaning doors were added either side, so a rake or maybe a hosepipe could be used to clear the aforementioned areas.

So, if you chose to model say 92000 soon after being built, you could legitimately leave them off !



I retro fitted some to my own during its recent overhaul, but they are only dummies:-





Cheers Don

[92220]

Just to add to Don's photo offering, here is the end view of the ashpan:

Ashpan end view by Robert Shephard, on Flickr

Bob.

[92220]

Hi Phil.

I've just sent you an email with some other info which may be of help.

Bob.

[tony9f]

Hello Phil,

I've been following your thread as I'm also rebuilding a Winson 9F. Mine is a bit later than yours being No. 50, so I assume that yours was originally had a better build quality than mine, at least the boiler looks like it anyway.

In reply to your question re. the ashpan bottom doors; I have the original build notes and can say that there is no reference to any mechanism for operating them. It's almost like they looked at it and went "too difficult file" and left it to the builders own devices. I have built a new ashpan that looks like the prototype design but retained the sliding dump doors and also changed the grate design so that the centre section is like a two trap doors that drop into the deep sections of the ashpan.

Regarding the smokebox, This is a bit involved because it has a lot to do with where the cylinders have been placed. You might have sussed already that the sit about 1/4" too far forward presumably for ease of manufacture. The problem is then that Winsons never compensated this by repositioning the steam pipes or the exhaust breech and consequently the smokebox is also too far forward. I have modified the smokebox to accomodate these discrepancies.
This also creates another problem with the valve gear inasmuch the the union links are also too short which affects the valve events. As far as I am aware when Walschaert gear is at mid stroke and mid gear, all the levers should be perpendicular to each other at their pivot points. I made longer union links.
The cylinders required some work in order that the bores were parallel to the back face (some of the machining was awful), I also addressed the inadequate porting by drilling additional passages to the valve chests and opening out existing ones. In addition, the pistons have been fitted with two CI piston rings instead of an o ring from a Stihl chainsaw (44mm bore).

As I say though, there are lots of instances where the build notes/instructions leave a lot to be desired and if anyone seriously thought that someone with no mechanical knowledge or access to basic workshop facilities was going to successfully build one of these they would have had more chance of pulling hairs out of their arse while wearing boxing gloves.

[tarnish1]

Hi Tony,
Good to hear from a fellow Winson 9F owner/builder.
Things noted so far:
the quality of build materials is generally good.
Boiler seems good.
Making another smokebox, mainly because the original is aluminium, so I decided I would rather it were brass.
Cylinders seem ok (other than the obvious port changes and a good hone) has a single cast iron piston ring and cast iron piston.
Drain cocks were a mess and one was missing so Im going to fit steam operated ones.
Going to change the wheels for ones from the warnet design.
Motion and slide bar brackets are already made with MEL kits (isnt the LH bracket quite tricky) made them up while waiting for the loco to get here fromm Station road Steam .
Front buffer bar to be replaced with gussets behind.
The PO has made a bit of a good effort trying to rectify the known issues with the winson 9F (water pump etc) The water pump still needs sleeving though to reduce the output.
The boiler mounts at the throatplate are different to the Warnet type, the lugs are on the boiler but the boiler sits on a brass block fixed to the forward face of the ashpan.
There are no rear mounts shown at all. ( going to replicate the Warnet type)
So at the moment I am just about to remove the running gear and see what work the springs need.
It would be good to hear about your experiences Tony and get another Winson point of view.
cheers
Phil

[tony9f]

Hi Phil,

Sorry I didn't sign off after the last post, I sort of forgot. I have been working on mine for about 11 years now and there isn't much I haven't modified. I actually fabricated my own slide bar brackets from scratch but did use the MEL expansion link brackets. My driving wheels were all reworked to make them look more proper (several weeks on the mill reshaping spokes, crank webs and balance weights), all wheels turned to scale size and profiled to Southern Fed. standard.
I have also modified the Winson suspension as it was too stiff. I slotted the ends of the spring leaves and made necked bobbins in place of the screws and spacers so that the springs are located but can flex, seems to work.

Anyway, this is just a small part of it. If you want to PM me I can give you more details and photos.

Tony

[tarnish1]

Ashpan post priming before final heat resistant painting.

[tarnish1]

Made a new smoke box and saddle over the last couple of days, I wanted something a little more corrosion resistant than the aluminium one, I possibly would have used the original but the bottom hole for the blast nozzle had been altered and was an odd shape.
The ash pan has been finished and coated in the heat proof paint and cooked at 180deg c for a couple of hour's.
Next step is the rear boiler mounts as per the Warnet design, Istarted them tonight I’ll finish them over the next couple of days.

Phil

[tarnish1]

Rear boiler mount pads, had to soft solder these to correct the angle of the back head foundation ring.





Rear boiler mounts in position!



just got to clean things up on them now!
Then onto mounting the smoke box. Once that’s done I can start work on the chassis and cylinders.
Cheers
Phil